The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[BallistikMike]

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle.

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

 

[Karazenpo]

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle.

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

Hi Mike, this a question I believe Sigung John Bishop can answer. Hopefully, he'll see your post, if not, e-mail him privately. Professor Forbach is his instructor and I don't think there is anything about Kajukenbo history that John doesn't have knowledge of.

 

[John Bishop]

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I spent last saturday visiting with Sijo Emperado, and we talked a little bit about John Leoning and Sonny Gascon. I was under the impression that Gascon was a first generation Kajukenbo black belt, because his name is listed under Sijo Emperado on our family tree. Sijo told me that Gascon was in fact John Leoning's student, but that he came under Sijo Emperado after Leoning died in 77. This tells us that there was possibly a relationship between Karazempo and Kajukenbo at that time.
Sijo told me that Leoning was one of his early students from the Palama Settlement school.
When Marino Tiwanak started his school at the CHA-3 building, Sijo told Tiwanak he could pick 5 senior students to be his assistants. John Leoning was one of those students. Leoning only stayed at the CHA-3 school for two months before coming back to Palama.
As to early (50-60s) Kajukenbo techniques, there were originally 8 Palama Sets (Pinions), and most of the other techniques, "punch counters", "grab arts", "knife counters", "club counters", etc. were in place.
Important thing to remember, many of the early Kajukenbo teachers were not black belts when they started their schools. They primarily came to the mainland to find employment. (But like when Gracie Jiujutsu came here in the 90's, people were hungry for the knowledge, so color belts started teaching.)
John Leoning was not yet a black belt when he first started teaching in California. Unlike now days where everyone has a video camera, people on the mainland in the 50-60's could not keep up with the developments occuring in Hawaii. So they supplemented their training with what was availiable in their areas.
As to the techniques that John Leoning and Sonny Gascon taught, they are somewhat differant. (My first Kajukenbo instructor was from the Leoning lineage, and I know some of Leoning's first black belts, so I've seen their techniques.) I've never seen Karazempo techniques, so I can't say whether there are slightly or vastly differant then Leoning's.
The best example of the "Original Method" is in the 2 video series produced by GM Gary Forbach. The "Panther Productions" series,and the "World Kajukenbo Organization" series. All the taping of the WKO series were personally supervised by Sijo Emperado to make sure they were "original teachings".

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.

 

[BallistikMike]

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?


Thank you for the information

 

[John Bishop]

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?


Thank you for the information

Panther Production was bought by Century Martial Arts Supply a few years ago. The bulk of their 600+ titles were put into archives. From what I was told, they can be purchesed in lots of 20 from Century. Or, you can find a few at differant suppliers that may still have them in stock. They are also sold on Ebay occassionally.
We are not marketing the WKO tapes commercially at this time. But if you are interested in them, email me for more information.

 

[GAB]

Hi,

With all due respect, not wanting to stir but only to clairfy.
I believe Sifu John Leoning was a Black belt when he came to the mainland, I believe he was a black belt before he was with Sijo Emperado.
I have read numerous accounts about lineage, the most recent was from a school on the East coast.

Maybe Matt could add something to this?

I have been under the impression when Sifu John stepped onto the Mainland he was the Senior black belt here. I believe he was a Black belt under Master Chow,(prior to EP) and there is nothing I have found to change my mind.

I believe that was one of the reasons Sijo Sonny Gascon changed his whole agenda and the reason Sifu John did not.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

Hi,

With all due respect, not wanting to stir but only to clairfy.
I believe Sifu John Leoning was a Black belt when he came to the mainland, I believe he was a black belt before he was with Sijo Emperado.
I have read numerous accounts about lineage, the most recent was from a school on the East coast.

Maybe Matt could add something to this?

I have been under the impression when Sifu John stepped onto the Mainland he was the Senior black belt here. I believe he was a Black belt under Master Chow,(prior to EP) and there is nothing I have found to change my mind.

I believe that was one of the reasons Sijo Sonny Gascon changed his whole agenda and the reason Sifu John did not.

Regards, Gary

My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.

 

[GAB]

My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.

John Bishop,

I don't have the sources, I have what I said in my post.

If what you say is correct then so be it.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

Gary (GAB):

You claim to have been one of John Leonings white belts back in the 60's, like that gives you some type of expertise in Kenpo history.
I personally know some of John Leonings students who were with him in 1958, and onward. I know his son John Leoning Jr.
So before I start to believe you were even around his school, I'll ask you some simple questions about it.

1. Who was the actor who funded John's first school in Hollywood? In fact the school carried his name, as did the school patch.

2. Who were John's black belts from 1959 to 1963?

3. Which black belt broke away from him in 1962, and took several of the students with him?

Pretty simple questions for someone who was supposedly there.

 

[The Kai]

Wow

An actor that funded the school, how cool! I wonder if he ever stopped by, Man that would make for some cool stories. Put his name on the patch? Was'nt that a little awkward?


Did that Black belt who left ever go anywhere?

I'm sure there are some stories, good and bad,I can't wait to hear them -Luv the history
Thanks
Todd

 

[kelly keltner]

I find these to be good trivial pursute(sp) type questions, but if gary was there for a short period of time before going into the LAPD or marine corps then he may not have the answers to those questions nor would I find it reasonable for him to have to. I however do have a fascination with the timeline that he put together. To which I can only come up with one solution. We need the dates that Sifu Leonning(sp) and Mr. Gascon were promoted. John or Joe or anybody could come up with that info it would be appreciated. Please lets stop with the before I believe you were there stuff and try to steer back on to a meaningful discourse. Although I must admit I'd like to know the answers to those questions myself.

kelly

 

[GAB]

Hi John,

I will say this, then please, answer the age question.

We have gotten on the wrong side, because I disagree with a few of the things that have been said, about good Martial Art Practioners that I personally know and some I don't like, but, apparently my opinions get me bounced and others can have theirs and still remain...Respectfully submitted.

I also trained with Robert Koga, (your friend) I was his favorite demo guy (yes John I had an attitude).
Gary Payne and others that were in the academy, and at Foothill station when I worked out in the weight room and the mats we had set up, all knew this.

John, I have a great reputation, I will send you references if you want to start this...Just call up Metro desk and ask for Sgt P. W. He is about the oldest living or longest on the Job right now, he was my Sgt in Foothill and Metro. I just talked to him about 2 months ago. He will remember me...LOL

I will add this, when I was in the Academy, I was the only man to receive a
commendation. (I saved an over weight Detective who if I had not been there would have been toast, but then that is why I was there.) Foothill Division 1967 while on Christmas leave from the academy and working in the streets for the first time

Yes, John I was one of Sifu John Leoning's white belts. :whip:

If I had not had the prior training, USMC and the fighting capabilities I have always had, I would have been in awe when I went there.
But it was the other way around and the Blue or Green I can't remember.
He was a small man, I told him, I am here to learn, and hone up, but I could take him out, he agreed. We had mutual respect. (I was getting Private lessons).

As far as those specific questions go I could try to guess. I was a white belt and was not in the know at the time.

I will ask, if he had black belts in 1959, who promoted them?

I went into the USMC 1959 and got out in 1963, got back to the North Hollywood area just prior to 65. Was a Sifu John Leoning student prior to my entry into Police work. I did see Dennis Weaver in the dojo.
I was being trained by lesser belts, my main memory was the Kung Fu influence and how often he was training in that. I do not believe he ever trained me personally. But I did get to talk to him (or I should say listen while others were talking).

When I was there I was under the impression a lot of what we were doing was Okinawan and Shotokan. He had a special class for Kung Fu, (which I also took).
He actually called (Kajukenbo) Hawaiian Karate street fighting, most of the time.
Must be one of the reasons Bill Ryusaki took the name when he left plus he does not even show John as his true instructor, is that honest?

How about I guess? James Coburn???Robert Conrad???Dennis Weaver??

Sonny Gascon, Bill Ryusaki, Dave Kamalani, Julio Blacquera, Walter Godin.

I don't personally remember this. I am just playing at it. Because you want to go there rather then answer my thoughts. Or deal with the apparent flaw that I have observed.:asian:

I believe in the 9 Basic ways of Kenpo John, the first is "Do not think dishonestly". I know you probably know this, but it is in "A book of 5 Rings" I personally like Sphere over Ring. But what do I know?

We were not talking about me or you or any one on this board.

I am just showing you a time line John. When things don't match up in an investigation you have to question it, right?

Since you have personally called me out, so be it.

Please don't feel insecure about me. I am not claiming to be a 8th, 9th or 10th Dan or even a Black belt ( except on MT).

I have had many offers to go there but I have not nor will I. Besides John I have nothing to gain by it, I am who I am. No Belt or lack of will change that.

I am 63 this month John, every one knows me around this area. Call my friend and Sensei Pat Kelly or a new Sensei I just started to go to also, Tim Evans. They are in the Elk Grove phone book.

I have nothing to prove John, I have been there and done that, end of this comment for now. Could we get back to the time line?? Thank you.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

Answer#1

Leoning's school in No. Hollywood, Ca. was funded by the Hawaiian actor Poncy Ponce. Pictured is Poncy Ponce, and the actress Connie Stevens.
Poncy Ponce, Connie Stevens, and Robert Conrad starred in the 50's-60's TV detective show "Hawaiian Eye".
Robert Conrad, who was a student of John Leoning, was to use his Kajukenbo skills later in his next T.V. series; "Wild Wild West".
In fact when Conrad (as James West) fought actor Don Stroud, it was the first time two Kajukenbo stylists fought each other in a TV show or movie. Don Stroud had been a student of Sijo Emperado's at the Palama Settlement school.

Answer#2
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones.

Answer #3

Bill Ryusaki broke away around 62-63 and took several of the students with him. His most famous student is Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. And yes he claims John Leoning as his Kajukenbo/Kenpo teacher.

 

[John Bishop]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary

What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.

 

[Karazenpo]

Personally, I gave up a long time ago of looking for exact dates in the rankings of the old seniors and for that matter, dates for anything back then. I found two dates of when Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan, two dates on when Mitose came to Hawaii and 3 ages when he went to Japan to study-3, 4 and 5. Two dates when Sifu Leoning brought Kajukenbo to the mainland (1957, 1958). Charles Fisher has Sifu Leoning listed as the highest ranking Kajukenbo black belt on the mainland in 1960-8th dan, check out his website. We finally get a date on Chow's black belt years ago only to find out it was not signed by Mitose which we were led to believe for so many years but by Professor Thomas Young of which I've heard several different reasons why that was done. Four dates listed for New England's first kenpo school- 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. At least two dates listed for the founding of Gm. Fred Villari's organization-1968, 1971. Three dates recorded for Boddhidharma hooking up at the Shaolin Temple according to various sources. Several dates of when Kajukenbo added it's various arts from 1947 to the 60's, take your pick, several years of which Mr. Parker started his revisions of the Mitose/Chow Kenpo that span the late 50's to the early 60's and the beat goes on..........

As far as black belts go, I now sincerely believe this black belt thing of legitimate rank and so forth is a product of the newer generations of kenpo practitioners. Let's take a look at the old and start with Funokoshi. Here's an excerpt I used on this forum on another topic:

"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."

So, now we got the 'father of all black belts', the first karate black belt in history and that's how he got it, not to mention a godan renshi ranking! It's really funny because his student, Konishi, mentioned above, only held ranking in a Japanese sword art and back then the 'Kai' only hosted the Japanese jiu jitsu, aikido and sword related arts but has since expanded. Later, the Butoku-kai got the reputation of being a 'paper mill'. There is controversary on when the late Mr. Parker received his shodan from Professor Chow and the number one person who started all this Hawaiian derived kenpo thing, James M. Mitose was never awarded a black belt period. This is not at all meant to knock anyone but to make a point. The point being, back then, black belt was very subjective with very loose requirements. I also believe most back then, if not all, weren't even tested for the rank. Curriculums, as we know, were very limited with an emphasis on drilling the basics, self defense techniques which could be expanded upon by borrowing from the basics and just one form to start the whole thing, Naihanchi. I would venture to say many donned the belt prior to any 'official' promotion by their instructor when they began to publically propagate the art and received the ranking later on down the road when they proved themselves worthy. No one ever complained about it back then or now, so perhaps that was an accepted method of how it was done in that time. This happened all over, including Okinawa which took it a step further with the 'airport promotions'. In those early years in Hawaii and then in kenpo's introduction to the mainland it was like this saying I picked up from KenpoJoe Rebelo, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind." If they weren't black belts in kenpo with only three karate schools in all of southern California, two of which were kenpo, then who were?, lol. As the 70's approached in my area (New England) there was all this talk about self promotion and legitimate rank because of Fred Villari going from a nidan under Nick Cerio to a 10th in record time, surpassing, not only his instructor but his instructor's instructor. The only problem was some of the most vehement Villari critics also did their own rank thing, only it was anywhere from three to six thousand miles away. Fred Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard.......trained in Rhode Island, lived and worked in Massachusetts and set up his first schools in New England. So, what I try to do in my research is to just show an accurate lineage of our systems, which at times, can also be difficult but it gives an idea of who and where we came from and what went into our art.
__________________

 

[GAB]

Hi Joe,

Good post, thanks.

The part about the "one eyed man in the land of the blind" is right on.

GM Estalilla in Kabaroan, use's that also, for all the various arts that came out of the FMA. Lot more Islands then Hawaii and as much controversy x 50, I have found.

No matter it is still interesting...I still like the time line.

I believe it says more then any other way I could have put it, I am sick of the big stir and getting bounced.

:idunno: Guess I am a slow learner.
Like a bookie I knew when I told him that.
He said, its what I have been doing my whole life, besides it dos'nt hurt anyone. I have said it before and I will say it here, I have been accused of ant hill kicking (my mother).

Joe Friday was the man. Just looking for the facts.

I have had my toes stepped on more then once in the dojo does not stop me from going barefoot.

I see the new breed likes a footcover (especially in the winter) Hanshi won't let you go there, so it must be right.%-}

Regards, Gary

 

[James Kovacich]

I think Joe touched on the "reality" of just about all black belt lineage. Even the "best" have "skeletins." In my early years I was Kajukenbo and thats why I "peep" in here. I trained in Karate, Judo / Jujutsu and Kobudo under my brother-in-law and we would have long talks.

But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was abastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be.

The reality was that his instructor the late Tarow Hayashi (RIP)
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm
was the founder of a of couple of systems. Bujutsu Taiho in the around 1960 and Kumiuchi in the 1970's were his creations.

So one mans "truth" is can be another mans B.S.

 

[Karazenpo]

akja stated: "But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was a bastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be."


Yes, Jim, we used to hear the same thing, especially form Shotokan stylists, that their art is pure. What a bunch of b.s. being that Shotokan is a blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu and then altered to fit the perspective of the Japanese people......... sounds like a 'bastard art' to me!, lol.

 

[kelly keltner]

So the answer to my last post is no


kelly