The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[Danjo]

Concerning USSD and Villari's-Please Read
Moderator's Note:

I'm sure everyone is aware that we live in a very litigious world. To save anyone here, members and staff, from the threat of lawsuits I want to make the following suggestions.
1. Please keep comments to descriptions of your own personal experiences. If it was a good or bad experience, the reader will know. So avoid any attacks on the character of a instructor or organization. Your own experiences will tell the story.
2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.
3. Try and remember that even in a organization that appears all bad, there are probably some hard working, ethical people, who are doing their best to teach and support their students.

Thank You
__________________
John Bishop

What organization or person was referred to in John's post?

 

[Gufbal1982]

OMG...for once I'm even confused as to what's happening here. All I would like to say is a saying that everyone knows..."When you ASSUME things, you make an *** of U and Me." And also, Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's? Just being curious...

 

[Joe Shuras]

What organization or person was referred to in John's post?

2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.

That should about cover it, and Dan, seriously, let's not play like you don't know either, c'ome on now, we're all more intelligent than that, I would hope so anyway.

Besides, John also stated: "If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them."

Evidently, if John wishes to say something to me about this, I guess it will be between he and I since he states when he has a problem with someone, he will address it himself personally. So, I'm sure he doesn't want you involved in this. I always try, yes try, to be respectful when I post and I even try with John even though of our recent past history BUT he always seems to find a way and you have done this too, to throw a shot ro two. Not only me, but I noticed he does it to others.

There's an M/T thread, an old one with Kimo Ferriera (the subject), Matt and John. John had some things to say and Matt honestly thought, at that time anyway, that John meant no offense and was just watching out for him so that he gets all his facts straight BUT several others including myself had communicated via pm and knew at the time John was firing a missile or two in Matt's direction because he's Kimo's student. Not right, Matt's a good guy and a very serious martial artist.

Then I look at this thread, another one of Matt's posts and Jesse also posted in support of Matt, (I know Jesse also personally, great guy) and yet John fires a couple of salvos at them.....again, not right.

Another thread not too long ago John got down on a poster a bit (can't remember who it was but it was on M/T) because the guy mentioned that the Bo in Kajukenbo stood for Chinese Boxing alone. John comes back at him saying how this is more misinformation being passed on and given life, etc. (I'm paraphrasing but he used the term 'misinformation' and this was the gist of it), and that the bo stands for Chinese Boxing and Western Boxing.

Low and behold, it was obviously John's articles this guy read stating the bo was for Chinese boxing. John stated once that the magazines take creative liberty with his articles at times, well, may I refer you to a 1989 (November) thesis by John Evan Bishop, a requirement for his shodan from Joe Rosas that was mailed to me and the only bo mentioned in Kajukenbo by John in this thesis was Chinese BOxing. No editors or publishers tainted the well here. Yes, in articles when Choo is mentioned, his boxing is part of his bio or credentials, but it was not listed as being the "Bo" with Chinese boxing in Kajukenbo. I believe he owes that poster a clarification and an apology for he was just parroting what John used to write.

Hey, I didn't write the thesis, he did. I would like to see things put aside on these forums so we can have good discussions but everyone is going to have want to - Joe

 

[Joe Shuras]

OMG...for once I'm even confused as to what's happening here. All I would like to say is a saying that everyone knows..."When you ASSUME things, you make an A$$ of U and Me." And also, Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's? Just being curious...

First of all, no assumption on my part, you are assuming I assumed, an A$$ of U and Me." lol, or you believe John, fine, that's your opinion but there is a history here that you are probably unaware of, I understand that. This is what I meant by 'everyone', my mistake to include you when figuritively (sp.?) speaking when saying 'everyone' so I'll say 'most' here because many who posted on this thread were privy to similiar discussions on other forums such as MAP. I know exactly what John meant and so doesn't Mike Rash. Sorry for any misunderstanding. - Joe

"Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's?" Read it again, you must have missed my point. I was trying to show how John was not going by the exact rules that he has posted on other threads, to other people in this case, the USSD/Villari's, was the most recent I knew of. 2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc. Rather hyprocritical I thought. If he wishes to substantiate this, well, then give names and evidence of this movement, other than that, it is merely unsubstantiated rumor, wouldn't you agree? - Joe

 

[Gufbal1982]

First of all, no assumption on my part, you are assuming I assumed, an A$$ of U and Me." lol, or you believe John, fine, that's your opinion but there is a history here that you are probably unaware of, I understand that. This is what I meant by 'everyone', my mistake to include you when figuritively (sp.?) speaking when saying 'everyone' so I'll say 'most' here because many who posted on this thread were privy to similiar discussions on other forums such as MAP. I know exactly what John meant and so doesn't Mike Rash. Sorry for any misunderstanding. - Joe

"Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's?" Read it again, you must have missed my point. I was trying to show how John was not going by the exact rules that he has posted on other threads, ot other people in this case, the USSD/Villari's, was the most recent I knew of. 2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc. Rather hyprocritivcal I thought. If he wishes to substantiate this, well, then give names and evidence of this movement, other than that, it is merely unsubstantiated rumor, wouldn't you agree? - Joe

LOL. Ok...I see. I should learn to read posts all the way thru...

 

[bluemtn]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-tkdgirl
-MT Moderator-

 

[Gufbal1982]

Mr. Shuras...can I ask you what makes you an authority of Kajukenbo. I know Mr. Bishop teaches the art at a school, which I ironically used to teach SKK nearby. If you want, you can PM it to me. I'm just curious of what makes you an authority on it...

 

[Carol]

Professor Shuras has taught Kajukenbo for quite awhile at a school in Massachusetts and has been a very active and respected part of the New England martial arts community. Any further description is up to him.

 

[kenmpoka]

Hi Peter, great to here from you. Some of the information I wrote about came directly from Sonny Gascon. I spoke to him directly about certain events and Mike Rash spoke to him about other things I reported here. The rest of the information came from Bruce Corrigan to me directly. We spoke at length recently over the phone.

Peter, I do remember that your information came from Bruce Corrigan but I didn't know the #3 kata created by David Kamalani also came from Bruce. I have Bruce's history here also and I didn't see any mention of this nor did he mention it in my recent phone conversation but then again, I didn't ask him. So, when I was asked in a post as to my source of the Kamalani situation (someone thought I must have got it from J. Madriga) I stated I had received it from you long before I ever read the J. Madriga history. I remember you telling me you were a student of Bill Mailman's as I believed he was your source. So, my question is, who is this J. Madriga?... if it is not a pen name for Mr. Mailman.... If you don't know, I'll call Bruce and ask and then I'll call you and let you know what I found out. Take care & be safe, my brother - Joe

Hey Joe,

"J.Madriaga" is not Mr. Mailman. The info on Kata 3 is on the report by J.Madriaga. Who he is I do not know. I was under the impression that he was with Corrigan Camp. Please give a buz when you get a chance.

Later,

 

[RevIV]

Wow Joe you must of read back awhile, I had forgotten about the slappin' Matt and I got for Lumping certain people together. I think i was in Japan at the time. I think i only got angry when people were saying we "East Coasters" were looking for a bone from Sijo Emperado for identity.
//off subject// I just saw something at the top of my screen. In the bold Kajukenbo and its definition it has for "bo" (chinese boxing)//
Joe, thanks for the props, things have been a little crazy over the past few years and people's words have flip flopped, but i can see now that when you wrote things, you honestly thought it was the truth, and when you found out you were wrong you had no problem admitting to it and taking the blame. Joe, as a friend i will say, lets not go down this path again in this thread unless a defense is needed to someone else's attack. There will be no seeing eye to eye with everyone.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[Hand Sword]

Great Post! Very well said! Our family can get very heated, as everyone in these forums is well aware. In my opinion, all the members, on all sides, have played a role in the evolutionary process, and, have their place at the table.

 

[Danjo]

Professor Shuras has taught Kajukenbo for quite awhile at a school in Massachusetts ...

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

 

[Danjo]

2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.

That should about cover it, and Dan, seriously, let's not play like you don't know either, c'ome on now, we're all more intelligent than that, I would hope so anyway.

Context is all. The "I heard this" was in reference to individuals and organizations, not "movments".

Besides, John also stated: "If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them."

Evidently, if John wishes to say something to me about this, I guess it will be between he and I since he states when he has a problem with someone, he will address it himself personally. So, I'm sure he doesn't want you involved in this. I always try, yes try, to be respectful when I post and I even try with John even though of our recent past history BUT he always seems to find a way and you have done this too, to throw a shot ro two. Not only me, but I noticed he does it to others.

Seems that you're the one that jumped on this today Joe. John didn't mention anyone.

There's an M/T thread, an old one with Kimo Ferriera (the subject), Matt and John. John had some things to say and Matt honestly thought, at that time anyway, that John meant no offense and was just watching out for him so that he gets all his facts straight BUT several others including myself had communicated via pm and knew at the time John was firing a missile or two in Matt's direction because he's Kimo's student. Not right, Matt's a good guy and a very serious martial artist.

Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!

Then I look at this thread, another one of Matt's posts and Jesse also posted in support of Matt, (I know Jesse also personally, great guy) and yet John fires a couple of salvos at them.....again, not right.

Another thread not too long ago John got down on a poster a bit (can't remember who it was but it was on M/T) because the guy mentioned that the Bo in Kajukenbo stood for Chinese Boxing alone. John comes back at him saying how this is more misinformation being passed on and given life, etc. (I'm paraphrasing but he used the term 'misinformation' and this was the gist of it), and that the bo stands for Chinese Boxing and Western Boxing.

Low and behold, it was obviously John's articles this guy read stating the bo was for Chinese boxing. John stated once that the magazines take creative liberty with his articles at times, well, may I refer you to a 1989 (November) thesis by John Evan Bishop, a requirement for his shodan from Joe Rosas that was mailed to me and the only bo mentioned in Kajukenbo by John in this thesis was Chinese BOxing. No editors or publishers tainted the well here. Yes, in articles when Choo is mentioned, his boxing is part of his bio or credentials, but it was not listed as being the "Bo" with Chinese boxing in Kajukenbo. I believe he owes that poster a clarification and an apology for he was just parroting what John used to write.

Hey, I didn't write the thesis, he did. I would like to see things put aside on these forums so we can have good discussions but everyone is going to have want to - Joe

So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?

 

[RevIV]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

Richard Fecina has a rank in Kajukenbo also. Is this one honorary too? Like you Danjo i am not trying to slam, just trying to get facts on another subject. Someone told me he was going up for 9th in Kajukenbo, has this happened yet?
In Peace
Jesse-
wow -its getting late, how these forums can get your mind running...or is the word numbing?

 

[Danjo]

Richard Fecina has a rank in Kajukenbo also. Is this one honorary too? Like you Danjo i am not trying to slam, just trying to get facts on another subject. Someone told me he was going up for 9th in Kajukenbo, has this happened yet?
In Peace
Jesse-
wow -its getting late, how these forums can get your mind running...or is the word numbing?

I don't know. I don't have emails from Fescina on the subject like I do from Joe.

 

[Hand Sword]

Can anyone give the answer to the post's question? Maybe a small layout of the structure used to teach the system?

 

[RevIV]

I don't know. I don't have emails from Fescina on the subject like I do from Joe.

Thanks.

 

[Carol]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

Thanks Danjo! Sorry about the goof, I appreciate the clarification. :asian:

 

[bakxierboxer]

I meant this to be private.

 

[Joe Shuras]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

No slam at all, Dan is correct and thank you for clarifying it, Dan. Outside of one Palama set from Kajukenbo, I teach from the Gascon/Pesare/Cerio/Villari lineage. I will answer you post in a bit, Dan, I have some catching up here to do, lol. - Joe