The new Creative Poomsae Division at 2011 World Championship

[ralphmcpherson]

I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open. I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.

Thats the problem though, by offering it it will deter others from joining who dont want that sort of thing. If I walked into a club and saw people doing forms to music I wouldnt join because its not my thing, so it works both ways.

 

[miguksaram]

Thats the problem though, by offering it it will deter others from joining who dont want that sort of thing. If I walked into a club and saw people doing forms to music I wouldnt join because its not my thing, so it works both ways.

So instead of asking what they are doing you just assume that is all they have to offere and you would turn around and walk out? Let's say you are someone who only likes sparring and you walk into a school that is just doing kata at the time you walk in, would you just turn around and walk out with that same mindset?

Besides no one said you HAD to do the creative stuff. It is an EXTRA program that a school offers, not the core program itself.

 

[miguksaram]

Oh we have car park fights, anything goes, dead and bloody bodies everywhere.!

Kata without Bunkai is just movements, the same as Taebo or boxercise, it doesn't reflect it's use. Sparring and competition fighting does reflect it's use. Non martial artists look at kata with music and see dance, they see no use for the movements. The same people watching MMA/sparring etc can see what the movements are for, it's self explanitory.

So when you learn your kata for the first time they just right away start attacking you in your school? You never run your kata at the school without having to do bunkai while you run it?

 

[Tez3]

So when you learn your kata for the first time they just right away start attacking you in your school? You never run your kata at the school without having to do bunkai while you run it?

Kata and Bunkai is taught at the same time, we don't teach the kata then the Bunkai. We aren't a school, we are a club and only the children do TMAs.

Only the travellers who come to the MMA class have car park fights, all over the country usually of course often people attack them anyway.

 

[miguksaram]

Kata and Bunkai is taught at the same time, we don't teach the kata then the Bunkai. We aren't a school, we are a club and only the children do TMAs.

Only the travellers who come to the MMA class have car park fights, all over the country usually of course often people attack them anyway.

Interesting. So then adults don't learn kata at all they just do the MMA aspect? For the kids do they learn techniques and then kata/bunkai which refelct those techniques? Which kata are they learning? Also, why teach TMA at all, why not just teach the kids MMA?

BTW...my questions are not to antagonize...I am genuinely curious about the club's methods of teaching.

 

[Tez3]

Interesting. So then adults don't learn kata at all they just do the MMA aspect? For the kids do they learn techniques and then kata/bunkai which refelct those techniques? Which kata are they learning? Also, why teach TMA at all, why not just teach the kids MMA?

BTW...my questions are not to antagonize...I am genuinely curious about the club's methods of teaching.

I understand that so no worries.

The children learn TSD and Judo, we also try to teach them about as many martial arts as we can, we show them as many various ways of bowing, going into fighting stance ie left foot forward or right foot back etc and that sort of thing as we can. Most children will only stay with us for a couple of years or so before their parents are posted out so we try to make sure that wherever they go next they will be comfortable in whatever style of martial arts are available where they going. We don't teach them other styles just make them aware of them, its actually quite interesting though and does foster a liking for all arts.

My instructor has done Shotokan, I've done Wado and we both do TSD, all three are reasonably alike. We teach the Bunkai as we teach the katas, they put the Bunkai into their self defence training too.

I attend as many of Iain Abernethy's seminars as I can as well as using his books and DVDs. he's very good if you want to know anything or need advice on techniques etc. A very nice man as well as being a scary one.

We don't teach MMA until they are fourteen as we think it's better to learn a TMA first, very few people in UK teach children MMA, it's considered an adult thing so the children wouldn't find many places to train once they left us. We do a lot of ground work as well as the usual throws in the Judo which was my instructors first art many moons ago before he joined the Army, he too has a few different styles under his belt due to moving around a lot.

I do have a TSD class for adults but it's not been on for nearly eight months. I'll get to that in a minute. We teach MMA to adults because it's the best style for people who cannot be at regular training every week. Apart from the teenagers our students are all serving soldiers as are most of the children's parents. We have no syllabus so can train each session according to who is in, that way with duties, deployments and leave etc they never feel they are missing anything and they can always catch up. We can fit each class to what the students who are in need. We do put a lot of traditional techniques into our training and we do a lot of SD work mostly geared to crowd and riot type of scenerios. There's a big interest in MMA at the moment and the 'higher ups' in the army seem to approve of it as a useful adjunct to military training. The other thing is that the soldiers can come straight into the class and not have to learn too many techniques all at once or to worry about grading. When they have so much training at 'work' they want something that is fun, enjoyable and they can pick up the basics fast. Most can already box, that just needs a little readjustment to stances etc. Many have done a TMA when they were younger in civvy street but have been unable to pick it back up due to service commitments so we actually have very few complete beginners.
We have people coming in too from other places when they are here on course or training, they always add to the pot of techniques which is great.

I started a class last year for those who wanted to do MMA but also wanted to do TSD and grade. I made it a small class of 7 adults all soldiers from the same regiment the Quuen's Royal Lancers, along with a young assistant from the MMA class who's dad and brother are in the Scots Guards. The class closed down seven and a half months ago when they went to Afghanistan. While there one of my students, Steptoe, who was only 20 was killed by an IED.

We had a lot of the lads in the MMA class also in Afghan, they are back now and have popped in to say hello before going on leave. We'll be back to full training again in a couple of weeks.

I haven't decided what to do about the adult TSD class though, I want to get my students together to see what we want to do, training without Steptoe seems odd and somehow wrong but stopping training also seems wrong. One of the lads, Smudge was in last night, he's not the same person who went out, you can see it in his eyes. It's hit them badly. The lad who was helping me had his dad and brother in Afghan, his brother was injured by an IED, his dad John heard it go up. Both John jnr and snr are fine now but John senior who is our conditioning coach has had a hard tour. We'll have to see what the other lads are like when they are back properly. I think the next few months are going to be a bit rough both in the club and outside. Next year the Brigade are booked to go back to Canada at BATUS for training for Afghan in 2012.

At the moment even writing about Steptoe brings tears to my eyes I'm afraid but everyone is trying to get on with life all over the garrison so I can't dwell on it. We are looking to fundraise for army charities with a fight night early next year and we have the children's grading coming up, they of course have been distracted too by their fathers being away, some of them have been living on their nerves so I can't complain I guess.

Anyway sorry for prattling on, I do you know lol! I hope though you can see why we teach what we do.

 

[miguksaram]

I understand that so no worries.

The children learn TSD and Judo, we also try to teach them about as many martial arts as we can, we show them as many various ways of bowing, going into fighting stance ie left foot forward or right foot back etc and that sort of thing as we can. Most children will only stay with us for a couple of years or so before their parents are posted out so we try to make sure that wherever they go next they will be comfortable in whatever style of martial arts are available where they going. We don't teach them other styles just make them aware of them, its actually quite interesting though and does foster a liking for all arts.

That sounds cool. As you teach the various arts, is there one in particular that gets them going or do you sort of just mix it in and don't really tell the origins?

We teach the kids basic sparring stances for competition more than anything else. When I work combos witht he older group I get them going in a boxer's stance (both sides).

My instructor has done Shotokan, I've done Wado and we both do TSD, all three are reasonably alike. We teach the Bunkai as we teach the katas, they put the Bunkai into their self defence training too.

I attend as many of Iain Abernethy's seminars as I can as well as using his books and DVDs. he's very good if you want to know anything or need advice on techniques etc. A very nice man as well as being a scary one.

I have heard a lot of good things about him.

Overall it sounds like you have a very interesting and intense program going with your club. My condolence on you loss. My take is that you keep on with the class, because if he had the passion for it, he would have wanted it to keep flourishing. Many respect and blessings to all your serving students and their families.

 

[Tez3]

That sounds cool. As you teach the various arts, is there one in particular that gets them going or do you sort of just mix it in and don't really tell the origins?

We teach the kids basic sparring stances for competition more than anything else. When I work combos witht he older group I get them going in a boxer's stance (both sides).



I have heard a lot of good things about him.

Overall it sounds like you have a very interesting and intense program going with your club. My condolence on you loss. My take is that you keep on with the class, because if he had the passion for it, he would have wanted it to keep flourishing. Many respect and blessings to all your serving students and their families.

Thank you, it's very much appreciated.

When we show the children different things we tell them where it comes from, they are keeping folders at the moment for their gradings and they have to look up all the different styles they can, we teach them to count in Japanese and Korean too. For gradings they follow the TSD syllabus but we teach them as much as we can from other arts we've done. It's one of the reasons I haunt the different sections here so I can tell them more. The other thing we do is allow the children from other styles when they join us to keep their grades, it's demoralising for them if they lose their grades everytime they move, they have enough with moving houses, schools etc.

The kids like the grappling and throws in Judo, they love doing weapons too, Jo and Nunchukus (and foam swords! I caught the MMA fighters with them once playing 'sword fight' with them, they had a great time lol)) We tie the Judo in with the throws found in the katas. The TSD kata are very similiar to the Shotokan and Wado ones so the Bunkai is near enough the same.

Iain is very good, have a look at his site and his forum, plenty of TKD people already there.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Thank you, it's very much appreciated.

When we show the children different things we tell them where it comes from, they are keeping folders at the moment for their gradings and they have to look up all the different styles they can, we teach them to count in Japanese and Korean too. For gradings they follow the TSD syllabus but we teach them as much as we can from other arts we've done. It's one of the reasons I haunt the different sections here so I can tell them more. The other thing we do is allow the children from other styles when they join us to keep their grades, it's demoralising for them if they lose their grades everytime they move, they have enough with moving houses, schools etc.

The kids like the grappling and throws in Judo, they love doing weapons too, Jo and Nunchukus (and foam swords! I caught the MMA fighters with them once playing 'sword fight' with them, they had a great time lol)) We tie the Judo in with the throws found in the katas. The TSD kata are very similiar to the Shotokan and Wado ones so the Bunkai is near enough the same.

Iain is very good, have a look at his site and his forum, plenty of TKD people already there.

I really like this idea. Sounds like a fantastic school, Tez. One question, though, when your students acheive black belt, are they considered a Tang Soo Do black belt?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

So instead of asking what they are doing you just assume that is all they have to offere and you would turn around and walk out? Let's say you are someone who only likes sparring and you walk into a school that is just doing kata at the time you walk in, would you just turn around and walk out with that same mindset?

Besides no one said you HAD to do the creative stuff. It is an EXTRA program that a school offers, not the core program itself.

Yes I would walk out. I am a very busy person and dont get to train nearly as much as I would like, so when I do train I want to be doing stuff that is self defence related. Every minute I spend doing forms to music is another minute that Im not doing practical martial arts training. Maybe if MA was my full time job and I had 40 hours a week to put into it Id give stuff like that a go but unfortunately time is limited so I want quality training while in the dojang. So yes, if I walked into a dojang and they were doing forms to music I would look elsewhere as Im sure others in my predicament would do also.

 

[Tez3]

I really like this idea. Sounds like a fantastic school, Tez. One question, though, when your students acheive black belt, are they considered a Tang Soo Do black belt?

Sadly no one stays long enough to gain black belt but if they did it would be TSD as they follow the whole syllabus and have to do that for grading. The average time children spend with us is three years and we wouldn't have any black belts under 18 anyway.