The MMA vs. Traditional misnomer (Informal vs. Formal Combat)

superkizuna

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Recently I answered a thread with this as a subject but I feel it is strong enough a point to create a new thread.


MMA is martial arts. There is no different between MMA and martial arts. MMA describes a skillset and nothing more. What you are meaning to say is informal vs. formal combat. Televised, Sport MMA is informal (no uniform is enforced, quick touch of gloves, and etc.). A tournament (typical) is formal-- you wear your discipline or school's uniform and render courtesy. Sport MMA is televised and must follow certain rules. The techniques are revised for 1 vs. 1 combat and non-lethal applications. A mixed martial artist not participating in sport fighting is not going to limit his or herself in the street and/or against multiple enemies. Grappling is effective against multiple enemies but only if techniques are exectuted quickly or used to cause an incapacitated enemy to be some sort of defense.

Every martial art can potentially 'work' in Sport MMA unless it relies exclusively on illegal techniques. No established martial system can be called broken solely because a fighter is not a champion. The fighter is simply unable to apply the correct technique.
 

Cyriacus

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Boxing is a martial art. Running can be a martial art if you articulate it that way. I think what you mean is that the format of competition is different, and the way peoples systems can be applied within it will vary.

That said, yeah, grappling is definitely effective. But blunt trauma is god.
 
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superkizuna

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Boxing is a martial art. Running can be a martial art if you articulate it that way. I think what you mean is that the format of competition is different, and the way peoples systems can be applied within it will vary.

That said, yeah, grappling is definitely effective. But blunt trauma is god.


Of course boxing is a martial art. Running could only be a martial art based solely on cowardice. The term martial is not to be interpreted loosely or misconstrued. Martial means war-like or armed. And no I mean what I say. Competition is not combat. It is competition. Combat has only one meaning as well. Running can be competition but never combat or martial.
 

Steve

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Boxing is a martial art. Running is not, although you could argue that it is self defense.


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superkizuna

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I agree. I have had to flee before. And every single instructor of mine did Saturday or Sunday self-defense, special class and taught running.
 

Cyriacus

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Of course boxing is a martial art. Running could only be a martial art based solely on cowardice. The term martial is not to be interpreted loosely or misconstrued. Martial means war-like or armed. And no I mean what I say. Competition is not combat. It is competition. Combat has only one meaning as well. Running can be competition but never combat or martial.

Cowardice comes with bad connotations. Call it 'escape'.

In war, running away can get you back to your unit. Therefore it can be used in war. With a weapon, hanging back and getting a better position can be martial. See what i mean here? Running away is something your martial arts can facilitate. That makes it a part of martial arts if thats something taught in them. Or are you referring to sports? Sports being things that arent war-like.

Also, i never even brought combat and competition into this, mate :)
 

Cyriacus

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Boxing is a martial art. Running is not, although you could argue that it is self defense.


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Boxing is a martial art without etiquitte, but with a sport format. Exactly.

Running can be facilitated by boxing. If you go to a boxing gym and youre taught that, does that not make it a part of your martial arts?
 
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superkizuna

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No it doesn't; it makes it part of your conditioning. Running is largely moving from one point to another faster than a jog. I run 3 miles 4 times a week. I have never used it to fight someone. American Boxing is an art with a huge sport franchise. Outside of the ring it becomes deadly. Fight a boxer outside of the ring and he won't refrain from elbows and no cutman will fix your face. There will be no referee unless your girlfriend is there but she will have little to no authority.
 

Cyriacus

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No it doesn't; it makes it part of your conditioning. Running is largely moving from one point to another faster than a jog. I run 3 miles 4 times a week. I have never used it to fight someone. American Boxing is an art with a huge sport franchise. Outside of the ring it becomes deadly. Fight a boxer outside of the ring and he won't refrain from elbows and no cutman will fix your face. There will be no referee unless your girlfriend is there but she will have little to no authority.

Ah, i see. So youre defining martial arts in terms of fighting only. In that case, okey dokey.

Also, by those standards, your stance, guard, footwork... all thats conditioning, because youll never use it to fight someone. Youll use it to move around. Your fists do the boxing, and your arms, and shoulders, and hips, and feet, and chin. Meanwhile, i can just 'fight' by running away and grabbing the first weapon i come across. Being war-like and all rather than macho.

EDIT: Oh yeah. And because ive boxed in the past, im deadly now! Hooray!
 
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superkizuna

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stance, guard, footwork are parts of the art. I quit fighting after I started Aikido. Now I just apply techniques in combat situations. I fight with my wife about stupid stuff.
 

Cyriacus

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stance, guard, footwork are parts of the art. I quit fighting after I started Aikido. Now I just apply techniques in combat situations. I fight with my wife about stupid stuff.

Really? So they can be parts of the art, but facilitating success cant be? Interesting.

So, in Aikido, your uniform is not a part of the art. Its just something you wear. Youre not going to use it for combat, after all. Or does the principle only apply when you want it to? Think about it for a second. Some guy walks over and barrages your head in. Its both fighting and self defense and losing (if not just temporarily) if and when you figure out what the right technique to apply in the given combat situation is, let alone if and when you do it, let alone if and when it has any effect whatsoever. Youre reaching past a few boundaries, mate. Id suggest reeling yourself back to your original topic of MMA and Traditional arts, where ive been trying to keep it.
 

Cyriacus

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What do you study and have you been in a fight for your life before?

I dont study a system. Im in the long and gradual process of studying violence in general, as of last year. Me and a few friends tinker with stuff.
In the past, ive done Taekwondo and Boxing, riddled with some flavors of Judo, Wushu, and some other stuff. Not that any of that is even vaguely relevant.

Have i even been in a fight for my life before? I dont know. I decided not to risk my life finding out if it was in danger. Kinda changes your perspective. Have you ever had someone try and murder you, stacking everything against you, and offering you no reasonable chance whatsoever to do anything vaguely useful to help yourself? I.e., have you ever been in a fight for your life before?
 
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superkizuna

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I am a veteran of 2 wars and I have fought for my life in a few times on the street. So when you use martial arts to defeat somebody who wants to kill you it puts a great many things into perspective. I hope someday you get the oppurtunity to test what your studies of gifted you :)
 

Cyriacus

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I am a veteran of 2 wars and I have fought for my life in a few times on the street. So when you use martial arts to defeat somebody who wants to kill you it puts a great many things into perspective. I hope someday you get the oppurtunity to test what your studies of gifted you :)

I dont. I hope i never get the opportunity, thanks. Id rather not risk my life. Stacking the odds in my favor is... preferable, to say the least.

Also, how does this relate to the topic at all? I could be a police officer in some horrible city with years of brawling and fighting for survival under my belt. It wont make me an authority if my information isnt useful :)
 

Steve

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Boxing is a martial art without etiquitte, but with a sport format. Exactly.

Running can be facilitated by boxing. If you go to a boxing gym and youre taught that, does that not make it a part of your martial arts?
Wait... there's no etiquette in boxing? What?
 

Cyriacus

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Wait... there's no etiquette in boxing? What?

Well that came out wrong :p I meant bowing, and stuff. :) My bad mate! I guess touching gloves might factor in, but ive yet to see someone get thrown out for not doing that, or reprimanded.
 

lklawson

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The term martial is not to be interpreted loosely or misconstrued. Martial means war-like or armed. And no I mean what I say. Competition is not combat. It is competition. Combat has only one meaning as well. Running can be competition but never combat or martial.
Actually, you might want to argue that point with the folks who actually invented the term "martial art" (or, in particular, "Arts Martial") back in the 15th or 16th Century (I forget which). They believed, and wrote, that "competition" was, in fact, part of the Arts Martial. Heck, Kampfringen and other forms of wrestling were deliberately sportified as a training and moral building tool. And it lasted for centuries (and is, in fact still going). Hutton created and espoused his 5' long stick-fighting style, which he termed Great Stick, specifically for Esprit de Armes.

Nah, sorry friend, but you're trying to shoe-horn your modern (and highly contested) definition of "martial arts" as a narrow definition into a much wider context in which it just doesn't fit. While I agree, completely, that at its core, "martial arts" are about hurting people and breaking their toys, there's a lot more the broad martial arts world than just that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Argus

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Recently I answered a thread with this as a subject but I feel it is strong enough a point to create a new thread.


MMA is martial arts. There is no different between MMA and martial arts. MMA describes a skillset and nothing more. What you are meaning to say is informal vs. formal combat. Televised, Sport MMA is informal (no uniform is enforced, quick touch of gloves, and etc.). A tournament (typical) is formal-- you wear your discipline or school's uniform and render courtesy. Sport MMA is televised and must follow certain rules. The techniques are revised for 1 vs. 1 combat and non-lethal applications. A mixed martial artist not participating in sport fighting is not going to limit his or herself in the street and/or against multiple enemies. Grappling is effective against multiple enemies but only if techniques are exectuted quickly or used to cause an incapacitated enemy to be some sort of defense.

Every martial art can potentially 'work' in Sport MMA unless it relies exclusively on illegal techniques. No established martial system can be called broken solely because a fighter is not a champion. The fighter is simply unable to apply the correct technique.

I'm not sure I really get the point of this thread. But in any case, your assertions are not very logical.

I would actually say that MMA is "formal" and traditional martial arts are "informal." Now, I'm not really referring to modern sportive arts such as Karate, Judo, and BJJ, as those do tend to be more similar to MMA in training and purpose when you throw in sport and competition. I am referring more to traditional martial arts, or modern arts practiced in a traditional way.

MMA is a profession. As with any sport, MMA practitioners are professional athletes training for the single purpose of winning matches. They train specifically, and only for the circumstances and rule sets they will encounter in the ring.

Traditional Martial Arts are not a profession. Practitioners are not professional athletes, and they do not train for sport and competition. They are amateur martial artists with more interest in understanding the art itself than in winning competitions.

These different approaches create stark differences in what you get out of your training, and how you approach it. The goal of a MMA practitioner is simply to win competitions by the simplest and most effective means possible, and he will use any art to do so. Traditional martial artists are usually more interested in trying to understand their art above all else. Now, there is a lot of overlap these days with many people in traditional martial arts taking a lot of liberty in "making the art suite them" (or suite what they want it to be), and mixing different arts. But for the most part, the goal of a traditional martial artist, at least in terms of learning, should be to understand and internalize the mechanics and principles of his art.

Each are training for different goals, and different purposes, and adopt the best methods for those goals. An MMA athlete is not usually going to put in years and years of time studying and trying to understand in completion an entire traditional system, nor is he going to put much value on applying the principles and structure of that art against others. It's a more efficient use of his time to learn a variety of simple and effective arts, and use each one when it's needed, than it is to try to adopt a broader, overall approach to combat. It's not, of course, that such an approach isn't effective; but in a professional sportive setting against professional, very well rounded athletes, with rules and safety equipment, it's very difficult and not an effective strategy if your goal is to compete in such competitions on a regular basis.

On the other hand, sportive competitions, even in MMA, train for a very specific set of circumstances that are not present in real combat. A lot more things are taken for granted than you might think in competition -- even in MMA;

There will be only one opponent. He will be a professional athlete. The combat will be by mutual agreement. There will be a variety of rules which not only disallow certain techniques (attacks to the neck, groin, back of the head, kicks to downed opponents, etc.), but also discourage generally "unsafe techniques" -- for example, even open hand strikes are generally discouraged due to the chances of eye gouging. There will be plenty of safety equipment that change the dynamics of the fight as well; strikers will be wearing gloves. Contestants won't be wearing shoes or clothing. They will be fighting on a safe surface; there will be no concrete, pavement, walls, garbage, items, rocks, stumps, roots, trees, other persons, or makeshift weapons lying around. There will be no chance of an opponent pulling out a weapon. There will be a time limit. There will be a referee. You won't be fighting for your life. You won't be seriously trying to injure your opponent, or him you. You will know your opponent before the fight, and after the fight. You are practicing for a very controlled environment, against very a very specific kind of opponent, and you must train in a very specific manner in order to have a high chance of success.

Most of these things are not true for circumstances in which other martial arts were designed for, whether those designs be military training, general methods or approaches to combat, self-defense, or cultivating a specific skill or skill set. And there is specialization within the arts as well; not every art is designed for every situation. Consider, for example, historic Japanese sword arts. You have those arts which were designed for the battlefield, and armored practitioners, and those which are designed for unarmored combat. You also have arts that train specific skills, such as battou/iai jutsu. You have these same considerations also in many forms of jujutsu; some are designed to operate on the battlefield, against armed and armored opponents. Other styles are more recent, include striking, and are designed for unarmored, and often unarmed opponents. All are designed for opponents who are actually wearing clothes. There is a whole variety of circumstances and specific training behind every art. So, the key, as far as I'm concerned, is understanding your art.
 

lklawson

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MMA is a profession. As with any sport, MMA practitioners are professional athletes
Really? And here I thought that most of my friends who train MMA were actually amateurs who made their livings doing something other than MMA. I'll have to explain to them that they're actually professional athletes. That might please them.

training for the single purpose of winning matches.
Because only pro-MMA guys are interested in winning fights.

Traditional Martial Arts are not a profession.
Obviously. Because people like Funakoshi and Ueshiba never made a living off of teaching martial arts, never mind guys like that Musahsi whats-his-name. He definitely never made a living off of martial arts.

They are amateur martial artists with more interest in understanding the art itself than in winning competitions.
I'm sure some of them are. Seems that there are lots of different motivations for doing any form of martial arts. "Fun" rates way way near the top.

These different approaches create stark differences in what you get out of your training, and how you approach it. The goal of a MMA practitioner is simply to win competitions by the simplest and most effective means possible,
Because "true martial artists" prefer to use the most complex and difficult methods to win a fight.

Traditional martial artists are usually more interested in trying to understand their art above all else.
I've been told that some of them are actually interested in being able to survive a real life attack "on the street." Weird.

Now, there is a lot of overlap these days with many people in traditional martial arts taking a lot of liberty in "making the art suite them" (or suite what they want it to be), and mixing different arts. But for the most part, the goal of a traditional martial artist, at least in terms of learning, should be to understand and internalize the mechanics and principles of his art.
Unless that's not part of the history of his martial art. Maybe you should ask some of the Silat guys what they think the point of their martial art is?

nor is he going to put much value on applying the principles and structure of that art against others.
Are you even vaguely aware of UFC1? "The Gracie Challenge"??? The "Judo" Gene LeBell vs. Milo Savage match? Ever heard of these things? Hello? Bueller? <tap tap tap> Is this thing on?

There will be only one opponent. He will be a professional athlete. The combat will be by mutual agreement. There will be a variety of rules which not only disallow certain techniques
Crap on a stick! Have you never heard of Duels? It's a long and very "martial" tradition, spanning Asian, Occidental, and every other culture on God's green earth.

for example, even open hand strikes are generally discouraged
BZZZT! http://www.unitedfightorg.com/index.php/rules/

Contestants won't be wearing shoes or clothing.
I take it you've also never heard of the "sport" martial art commonly known as Savate (or sometimes Boxe Francaise):
800px-Savate_fouett%C3%A9_figure_1.JPG



They will be fighting on a safe surface; there will be no concrete, pavement, walls, garbage, items, rocks, stumps, roots, trees, other persons, or makeshift weapons lying around.
You forgot Lava and HIV infected needles.

There will be no chance of an opponent pulling out a weapon. There will be a time limit. There will be a referee. You won't be fighting for your life. You won't be seriously trying to injure your opponent, or him you. You will know your opponent before the fight, and after the fight. You are practicing for a very controlled environment, against very a very specific kind of opponent, and you must train in a very specific manner in order to have a high chance of success.
Duels. I repeat: D-U-E-L-S.

Most of these things are not true for circumstances in which other martial arts were designed for
You must have lead a very sheltered life. Here in the real world, we have famous people like Jim Bowie, Aaron Burr, and Miamoto Musashi who studied martial arts (at least I'm pretty sure Bowie had some training - probably from his dad & older brother) who yet managed to not be "martial artists" by your definition, joining the ranks of Funakoshi (who wasn't a martial artist because he was a "professional") and Siddhartha Buddha (who also wasn't a martial artist because he only taught monks for exercise).

whether those designs be military training, general methods or approaches to combat, self-defense, or cultivating a specific skill or skill set. And there is specialization within the arts as well; not every art is designed for every situation. Consider, for example, historic Japanese sword arts. You have those arts which were designed for the battlefield, and armored practitioners, and those which are designed for unarmored combat. You also have arts that train specific skills, such as battou/iai jutsu. You have these same considerations also in many forms of jujutsu; some are designed to operate on the battlefield, against armed and armored opponents. Other styles are more recent, include striking, and are designed for unarmored, and often unarmed opponents. All are designed for opponents who are actually wearing clothes. There is a whole variety of circumstances and specific training behind every art. So, the key, as far as I'm concerned, is understanding your art.
I hereby nickname you "Horatio."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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