The criminal justice system.
- Thread starter JBrainard
- Start date
It should be all of the above, since I am not in favor of a "one size fits all" type of system.
Some individuals can be re-habilitated. If they can be turned into productive members of society again, and are of no threat to society, then I'm all for it. Unfortunately, they're not exactly in the majority.
Many individuals are incorrigible, and should be confined / executed as the judicial system has decided. Even if they serve their sentences, are released, and commit more crimes, at least they were not free to commit the crimes during their incarceration.
Some individuals can be re-habilitated. If they can be turned into productive members of society again, and are of no threat to society, then I'm all for it. Unfortunately, they're not exactly in the majority.
Many individuals are incorrigible, and should be confined / executed as the judicial system has decided. Even if they serve their sentences, are released, and commit more crimes, at least they were not free to commit the crimes during their incarceration.
All of the above, but inmates should still be treated in a ethical matter. Sometimes it seems people get so carried away with punishing criminals they end up breaking the laws to do so. That is the problem with Sherif Joe in the other thread, there are a ton of reports and a lot of money spent settling lawsuits that say he mistreats / abuses inmates in a way which is at times illegal.
There will always be criminals who simply cannot be rehabilitated and we waste tax payer's money trying. There are others who can be rehabilitated or commit crimes for justified reasons (in their minds) who could be productive members of society again. Which means it needs to be tailored to the criminal.
Of course, I also believe that all prisons should be a place that no one would ever want to return to after they get out. There are some that really aren't much of a punishment.
Of course, I also believe that all prisons should be a place that no one would ever want to return to after they get out. There are some that really aren't much of a punishment.
evenflow1121
2nd Black Belt
The way it works in the US its a rehab system for juveniles and a penal system for adults. Theoretically speaking it would be a great idea to incorporate more rehab methods for adults in the criminal system, however, that would probably require more tax payer money since you would have to tailor the rehab to the inmate.
modarnis
Purple Belt
Not the way it works in this part of the US. Here in Connecticut, Juvenile system is 98-99% rehab for a variety of valid reasons. The adult system, in this state and many others has a wide range of rehabilitative options. Here in Connecticut, I would put it at 60% rehab 40% punitive for misdemeanors and felonies up to c felonies and probably a 75% 25% split punitive to rehab in A and B felonies
Often times there is a combination approach for second, third, fourth offenders where incarceration is combined with probation and treatment for psychiatric, substance abuse, or anger issues. THe notion that as a rule people (adults) are just locked up in the united states for non violent offenses is patently false. Many of the previously used diversionary options will not show up on a public record search, so it can look like first time offenders are getting punished severely when the reality is that it is their 3rd or 4th contact with the system and attempts at rehab have failed.
Tax dollars are already being spent wildly on the rehab end, without clearly demonstrable results. Here in Connecticut you have to work hard to get a printable criminal record. THere are 17 diversionary programs if used in the correct sequence allow you to commit crimes freely from age 16 until 25 without real consequence.
In my humble opinion as a prosecutor, small doses are harsh punishment early would help break the cycle. Sending the message that you can do what you want without real consequences fosters bad behavior
I'm split on this. Part of me thinks that its worth a shot at rehab, but the other part thinks that rehab is useless. I kind of look at the rehab as more of 'free time' out of the cell block. If someone was truely interested in getting help for an addiction, why do they wait until they arrive in jail? Why not seek help before you end up in jail? And with the number of repeat offenders, it gives the impression that the treatment they received was useless, because most of the time, they end up right where they left off.
Then again, would a longer, harsher sentence really make a difference? As another poster stated, some people are just not willing to commit to changing their lifestyle.
Mike
Then again, would a longer, harsher sentence really make a difference? As another poster stated, some people are just not willing to commit to changing their lifestyle.
Mike
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Just to be clear I am coming from a somewhat different justice system here in Australia, but it stems from the same roots. I think that before one can consider the question of whether the justice system should be penal or rehabilitative it would be necessary to change it back into a justice system.
By that I mean it is currently a legal system not a justice system. In the way society has approached the law and justice we have handed over the meting out of justice to a select few (lawyers, of course) who have, instead, produced a system that is so complicated to navigate that you need a lawyer to do so. They have guaranteed that we need them in order to see justice done.
To further complicate things in our system we have a distinction between barristers and solicitors (one can argue a case in court, the other can't).
By that I mean it is currently a legal system not a justice system. In the way society has approached the law and justice we have handed over the meting out of justice to a select few (lawyers, of course) who have, instead, produced a system that is so complicated to navigate that you need a lawyer to do so. They have guaranteed that we need them in order to see justice done.
To further complicate things in our system we have a distinction between barristers and solicitors (one can argue a case in court, the other can't).
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, One thing for sure...the present systems DO NOT WORK for the good of society!
BUT does work very well for the bad guys......who have so much rights...the innocent...suffer's
If it does not work? ...we must change it? so it does work?
Even our education systems (we are suppose to be the greatest country in the world). Yet we are behind...so far behind in our Kids educations...
If you see NO improvements as time goes by.....we are not thinking clearly with the proper goals.....................Aloha
PS: The USA will become another country that was great ...like the Greeks,Romans and British Empire was.....we will in a 100 years be a has being.......you can see it before your eyes..........SEE 100 years from now...Google or Yahoo? (may need to wait 100 years from now). HUH?
BUT does work very well for the bad guys......who have so much rights...the innocent...suffer's
If it does not work? ...we must change it? so it does work?
Even our education systems (we are suppose to be the greatest country in the world). Yet we are behind...so far behind in our Kids educations...
If you see NO improvements as time goes by.....we are not thinking clearly with the proper goals.....................Aloha
PS: The USA will become another country that was great ...like the Greeks,Romans and British Empire was.....we will in a 100 years be a has being.......you can see it before your eyes..........SEE 100 years from now...Google or Yahoo? (may need to wait 100 years from now). HUH?
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
i firmly believe we need two systems.
there should be a system based on education & rehabilitation. many criminals begin due to poor modeling, lack of opportunitites or other factors that can be cured with education and a good job. whether or not i think they deserve that at taxpayer expense, it's a good bet that our society would benefit from making it available.
there should also be a system designed to simply remove people from society permanently. career criminals and other dangerous felons should go away forever, their names never again spoken.
since these two goals probably can't be handled by the same group (the folks who want to work for group a probably shouldn't work with group b, and vice versa for damn sure), we should split things up.
just my 2.76 cents canadian.
there should be a system based on education & rehabilitation. many criminals begin due to poor modeling, lack of opportunitites or other factors that can be cured with education and a good job. whether or not i think they deserve that at taxpayer expense, it's a good bet that our society would benefit from making it available.
there should also be a system designed to simply remove people from society permanently. career criminals and other dangerous felons should go away forever, their names never again spoken.
since these two goals probably can't be handled by the same group (the folks who want to work for group a probably shouldn't work with group b, and vice versa for damn sure), we should split things up.
just my 2.76 cents canadian.
Just so I'm understanding your post. Have the education/rehab system for those who are first time offenders? Have the other system for those who have failed the process of the 1st time offenders and are coming back again?
Mike
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
pretty much.
i'm not sure i'd limit the first system to just first-timers in some cases, and i figure there are some things (murder of a child, ferexample) that even a first offense should land you in the pit of despair.
a little research done by folks smarter and more knowledgable than would be able to create a decent metric for figuring out who goes where.
i'm not sure i'd limit the first system to just first-timers in some cases, and i figure there are some things (murder of a child, ferexample) that even a first offense should land you in the pit of despair.
a little research done by folks smarter and more knowledgable than would be able to create a decent metric for figuring out who goes where.
OK, thanks for the clarification.
It sounds like a good plan, although I have to wonder how many would actually take the steps to rehab themselves.bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
OK, thanks for the clarification.
that's the big question. my idea assumes (and is supported by some but certainly not all studies) that many people involved in property crime and vice are there because they are either a) addicted to drugs or b)can't figure out how to make an honest living.
folks like that would, i'm guessing, opt for the stability and safety of honest work if they were shown the way.
now if they opt for c) they're to lazy, stupid or unmotivated to take the help that's offered...then right to the pit of despair they go.
now that i'm thinking about it, i wonder if deterrence would go up for the crimes that landed you in the pit on the first go. steal a car and you get to learn how to lay tile. embezzle enough to wreck grampa's retirement and it's the rest of your life getting your blind spot violated by hiv positive gang bangers.
