The Body's Natural Weapons

[K-man]

I think the greatest weapon is relaxation. Whatever body part you use, if you can't relax; you have no power in its delivery. It is the greatest paradox in the martial arts; it works well when we are tired, there is no process of tension, the impact is where the body weapon is formed, it is not even carried through. A brick in your hand is hard and sharp, in the air it is soft as a cotton ball, on impact - it is hard and sharp again.

Welcome to MT. What a brilliant way to start. A simple concept that is foreign to so many. Well done!

 

[Orange Lightning]

An axe kick as about as far from a natural body movement as you can get without destroying connective tissue.

And you are way too hung up on the idea of early Hominids "fighting." When would a human even WANT to fight, from an evolutionary/survival standpoint? Tribesmen might "fight" each other, but it's designed to be all about intimidation without much damage to either party, because otherwise a tribes strongest males would be constantly too injured to hunt or flee from predators.

Fighting a predator that's already got you? Running has already failed, you're on the ground, you have limited mobility and anywhere you go in the short term is going to lead you into a nasty set of teeth. Your only real prayers are that you can push it off just long enough to make another dash for it, or that you were popular enough for your tribe to come roaring back to save you. Watch some wildlife documentaries, particularly with apes, chimps and any of the big predators on the Serengeti, you'll see the dynamics at work. Predators do not "fight" their quarry. They ambush it, they run it down, they take it to the ground, they rip it apart.

"Fighting," as you seem to think of it, did not evolve as a natural behavior. Apes could not create any martial art or combat system because apes have no need for such a thing. The habit of various peoples to devise ways of killing each other with their bare hands developed to serve a different set of needs entirely.

Edit for sidenote:
World s oldest stone tools discovered in Kenya Science AAAS News
Crafted stone tools, and possibly weapons, may be older than we think. Maybe even predating the entire Homo genus. Additional support for this idea is that modern chimps have been observed stripping down straight branches, chewing the end to a point, and using their primitive spear to hunt bush babies.

Point 1 - Indeed it is. You can generate a lot of force that way though. For whatever purpose you might find for it.
I don't see how that disproves my argument. The body can generate massive force swinging downward. You can stomp harder than you can sidekick. You can slam down on a table harder with a hammerfist than you could with fist or open palm (assuming you're at the right angle), even though bottom of your hand is softer and could probably be damaged somehow from doing so. An axe can be swung with the greatest possible force downward. With a knife in your hand, the way to get the post force and the best leverage is swinging an icepick grip, downward.
Empty hand, it's fairly non lethal and non martial. With a hard force multiplier that can direct that force to a target using it's hard surface, it's most force we can possibly generate.
I think most of our natural defenses were developed fighting other hominids because they seem unlikely to have been developed fighting against animals. They mostly give us advantages over each other. That said, it also makes sense that certain things would have been handy for fighting animals too. Like hard shins. Ever notice that other animals don't have hard shins? I wonder if the nails could have been used to scratch at eyes. They're useless for digging.

Point 2 - Can't disagree with that. Fighting a lot would be bad for both sides. But I would think they would want to know how even if conflict was unlikely. Or a tribe could have found enjoyed the sport of it amongst themselves.
Although it's related, I don't remember bringing this particular aspect up. I'm talking about the biological tools we may or may not have (depending on who's opinion) for fighting and exerting force.

Point 3 - Why am I already on the ground? In that case, yeah, I 'm in quite the pickle. And why are always fighting lions or something massive in these examples? Caught without a weapon, running will get us nowhere because we aren't faster than other animals. If I am indeed unarmed, I'm mostly just trying to get it to go away. Make myself too costly to eat. I have indeed seen nature documentaries, and many animals do exactly this. Even against packs.

Point 4 - I don't recall arguing that either. I don't think we deliberately or accidental evolved martial technique. I do think certain traits for fighting that were more effective than others survived more and evolved more. Whether they be instincts or fists.

You know what would really punch my point about kicking? Some articles about an 80 year man fighting off a bear using kicks and a headbutt, and getting injured and thrown off a cliff yet surviving, and some others involving runners getting bears to just run by punching them in the head once.

80-year-old Man Fights Bear Wins with Headbutt Eats Pie to Celebrate News Nature World News

Woman punches bear to save her dog Juneau Empire - Alaska s Capital City Online Newspaper

girl punches bear at DuckDuckGo

I hear a story every now and then about someone punching a bear and it just runs. Happens a lot apparently. The article about the bear punching sounds like she was operating on instinct too.

 

[Blindside]

Here is an example of grappling versus animals, I met this guy in one of my BJJ classes. No he didn't try an armbar or triangle choke.....
Business Ex-Wrestler Uses Moves To Thwart Cougar Attack -- Claws Teeth Can t Match Choke Hold Seattle Times Newspaper

 

[Orange Lightning]

Here is an example of grappling versus animals, I met this guy in one of my BJJ classes. No he didn't try an armbar or triangle choke.....
Business Ex-Wrestler Uses Moves To Thwart Cougar Attack -- Claws Teeth Can t Match Choke Hold Seattle Times Newspaper

That's....is there a better word than epic? That's epic.
It's a great example of getting the animal to just decide you aren't worth the potential injury. Admittedly, I haven't given much thought to grappling animals because they usually outclass us in weight, and have fangs and claws that could cause it trouble in a tight spot. Which is exactly the spot that guy was in, but still managed famously.

So you met him? I wonder exactly how good one should be at BJJ before they're get to fight cougars. Not a beginner tactic I take it. xD

 

[Blindside]

It was actually before he started BJJ, but he had been a high school and college wrestler, so basically he did what he had been trained to do, he pinned the cat, had it mounted, sat on its chest, spread out its front legs, couldn't choke it, and was then stuck and didn't really have an end game. In this case he was twice as heavy as the cat, I don't think it would have worked as well with a large male that might have been his same weight.

 

[Orange Lightning]

It was actually before he started BJJ, but he had been a high school and college wrestler, so basically he did what he had been trained to do, he pinned the cat, had it mounted, sat on its chest, spread out its front legs, couldn't choke it, and was then stuck and didn't really have an end game. In this case he was twice as heavy as the cat, I don't think it would have worked as well with a large male that might have been his same weight.

Ah.... I somehow missed that he was sitting on the cat's chest.
Was it a really light cat? I didn't figure he would have double the weight of the thing. How heavy was the guy?

 

[Blindside]

Ah.... I somehow missed that he was sitting on the cat's chest.
Was it a really light cat? I didn't figure he would have double the weight of the thing. How heavy was the guy?

He was about my size, so 160-170 or so. Sub-adult male cougar are forced out of adult male cougar territory and often disperse long distances to find and establish a territory or survive until they are big enough to challenge for an existing territory. This guy was probably only one year old or so at this point, and was estimated at 80 pounds. The largest male cougar I have seen was about 150 and that is about their normal max, IIRC females usually max out around 100 pounds.

 

[elder999]

He was about my size, so 160-170 or so. Sub-adult male cougar are forced out of adult male cougar territory and often disperse long distances to find and establish a territory or survive until they are big enough to challenge for an existing territory. This guy was probably only one year old or so at this point, and was estimated at 80 pounds. The largest male cougar I have seen was about 150 and that is about their normal max, IIRC females usually max out around 100 pounds.

Depending on habitat, male cougars can reach 200 lbs., even in your neck of the woods....seen a couple that big over the last 20 years-actually saw the same one four times-not......comfortable.

 

[Orange Lightning]

Depending on habitat, male cougars can reach 200 lbs., even in your neck of the woods....seen a couple that big over the last 20 years-actually saw the same one four times-not......comfortable.

Sounds like an improbable tactic for me. I'm 160 now, but about 20 of that is fat. Dam pizza and college life. Spring just hit though.

But as far as grappling with animals, I've always thought it would be really easy to break a leg if you could get your hand on one. Not so much applicable to massive animals like bears. I wonder if it would apply to a 150 cougar?

Maybe. Cats seem to have a greater range of motion with their legs compared to say...dogs. In the story, the wrestler was able to pin the cougars paws to the ground. That would really injure a dog. Their knees don't seem very flexible though. And they don't seem to have reinforcements against pressure or impact on their legs. Not easy to break, but just from looking at pictures, they look a less sturdy than human legs.
And they wouldn't have to be sturdy, because they're cougars and other animals probably aren't going for their shins. The just need to be fast and powerful. Clearly though, I'm not the residential expert on cougars.

 

[elder999]

Right.....

 

[Orange Lightning]

Dam it. Wrong again. In fairness, I wasn't AS wrong as last time. xD

 

[Orange Lightning]

Anyone ever visit the site Manly Skills The Art of Manliness ?
It's an awesome site.

Anyway, I just found an illustrated instruction and story about fighting dogs on it.
Just thought someone might be interested.

How to Survive a Dog Attack The Art of Manliness

 

[K-man]

Anyone ever visit the site Manly Skills The Art of Manliness ?
It's an awesome site.

Anyway, I just found an illustrated instruction and story about fighting dogs on it.
Just thought someone might be interested.

How to Survive a Dog Attack The Art of Manliness

Not sure I'd agree with the bit about offering the forearm.

 

[Orange Lightning]

Not sure I'd agree with the bit about offering the forearm.

I wondered about that too. The story where he used his backpack instead made more sense. Better than a neck or a face I suppose, but probably not the optimal solution.

 

[K-man]

I wondered about that too. The story where he used his backpack instead made more sense. Better than a neck or a face I suppose, but probably not the optimal solution.

The problem with a dog hanging off your arm, particularly a big dog as seen in shutzhund or police videos, apart from the 40 kg weight is the pain and the shaking. The police dogs are trained to hold but a wild dog is going to rip and tear. Rottis are bigger again and dogs like pit bull terriers just aren't going to let go.

How would you like one of these guys on your arm?

To be honest I wouldn't want my arm in even a small dog's mouth.

 

[Orange Lightning]

The problem with a dog hanging off your arm, particularly a big dog as seen in shutzhund or police videos, apart from the 40 kg weight is the pain and the shaking. The police dogs are trained to hold but a wild dog is going to rip and tear. Rottis are bigger again and dogs like pit bull terriers just aren't going to let go.

How would you like one of these guys on your arm?

To be honest I wouldn't want my arm in even a small dog's mouth.

The one where the dog jumped over the car and where 2 dogs pulled the gunman off his feet where particularly impressive. Some of them looked like they got a hold of their hands....scary thoughts.
I was thinking about those training videos you posted earlier. The forearm just seems...really painful with all that pulling and tearing. But, in fairness, as does anywhere. And kicking and punching the dog that's connected to your forearm would shake it more and be additional pain.

Against a dog (not a police dog) without a weapon or tool like a bag or knife (I carry a knife, but I may not have drawn it by that time), I don't know what I would do. Probably stick my forearm out instinctively to brace myself, and kick. In theory, I know. But reflex and instinct don't work that way, and it's not like much dog fighting training to figure it out can be done.
Do you have a way you would defend yourself, unarmed, from a dog?

By the way, the site has a similar instruction for grizzly and black bears.

 

[K-man]

The one where the dog jumped over the car and where 2 dogs pulled the gunman off his feet where particularly impressive. Some of them looked like they got a hold of their hands....scary thoughts.
I was thinking about those training videos you posted earlier. The forearm just seems...really painful with all that pulling and tearing. But, in fairness, as does anywhere. And kicking and punching the dog that's connected to your forearm would shake it more and be additional pain.

Against a dog (not a police dog) without a weapon or tool like a bag or knife (I carry a knife, but I may not have drawn it by that time), I don't know what I would do. Probably stick my forearm out instinctively to brace myself, and kick. In theory, I know. But reflex and instinct don't work that way, and it's not like much dog fighting training to figure it out can be done.
Do you have a way you would defend yourself, unarmed, from a dog?

By the way, the site has a similar instruction for grizzly and black bears.

Fortunately we don't have black bears, grizzly bears or even brown bears (for those who look for species variation). We only have drop bears and they seem to totally ignore the locals and only attack tourists, probably because the tourists are the ones looking up all the time.

But seriously, I think fighting a dog is a bit like fighting someone with a knife. You are likely to be bitten. I would initially try to defuse the situation by backing away, pretending to yawn and I would try to not show any emotion. The dog attacks I have seen have generally been to the legs so I would be ready to sprawl and get a good grip on the scruff of the neck, preferably with both hands. Dogs have very loose skin folds around the neck so if something grabs them they can still turn their heads and bite.

I often play fight with my dogs, German Shepherds, as it is similar training to training against a knife. Offer a decoy, don't try to stop their forward motion, use deflection etc, until you can get that controlling grip.

Of course a full on dog attack is like a full on fight. Hopefully you will instinctively do what you have to do, but offering the dog my arm to play with is not part of my plan.

 

[Transk53]

I personally think that the fart is well underrated!

 

[Chrisoro]

And you are way too hung up on the idea of early Hominids "fighting." When would a human even WANT to fight, from an evolutionary/survival standpoint? Tribesmen might "fight" each other, but it's designed to be all about intimidation without much damage to either party, because otherwise a tribes strongest males would be constantly too injured to hunt or flee from predators.

"Fighting," as you seem to think of it, did not evolve as a natural behavior.

Actually, I have to disagree. Recent research indicates that male facial bone structure in humans evolved to be able to better take punches. In order for facial bone structure to evolve to be able to take harder punches, a whole lot of individuals would have to die(or in other ways lose their abolity to reproduce) as a result of fighting, ensuring that the ones with the bone structure most likely to survive punches would be the ones passing along their genes. In other words, fistfighting were probably not only about intimidation, were often fatal, and can definately be considered a natural behaviour, if this research is on to something.

 

[Chrisoro]

I think mostly the large flightless birds like Ostriches and Emus, but 1. They have some really huge, vicious claws as well as muscle strength, and 2. They only do it when running like hell hasn't been working.

Also, regarding your last statement, please google "Cassowary attacks".