The Blame Game

[michaeledward]

So basically your argument is the federal government (Bush) failed to responed quickly enough? I can live with that but, ...

I wonder how many people couldn't live with that.


And isn't he the guy who argued that HE could protect US better than Kerry a year or so ago?

 

[Marginal]

Facelesscowardwithnospine wrote:Maybe you should take a course on mass casualty incident command and see how things really work. Then you will understand how the mayor and police chief are to blame for not setting up a command structure

Yeah, 'cause FEMA's contolled by the mayor.

 

[Makalakumu]

It’s Time to Stop Beating Around the Bush



By now, it should be clear that the way our country handled hurricane Katrina is a national embarrassment. The fact that 25,000 body bags have been shipped Louisiana should clue people into the magnitude of this disaster. People who are attempting to attach blame to specific individuals are making a mistake.



“Blame,” in this case, spreads thinly. Local, state and federal officials share it. However, the root cause of the bungling of our governmental hierarchy is discernable. It lies with the very philosophy that currently drives our governmental policy. The “No New Taxes - Personal Responsibility – Small Government,” is the real culprit behind the mishandling of this disaster. It is the killer of what could turn out to be tens of thousands of people.



“Cutting Taxes” was the cause behind the lack of infrastructure to hold floodwaters and storms at bay. “Personal Responsibility” was the reason why evacuation orders were issued and those with means left and those without were trapped. “Small Government” was the reason behind the paralysis of our thinly stretched, tightly budgeted, ultimately resourceless governmental services. They were unable to react when the storm moved in and the floodwaters rose.



And this was a localized emergency. Could you imagine a national emergency! For instance, another Great Depression? Our entire country would be paralyzed and the sole reason would be the very philosophy that drove us. If there are any doubts, you can read all about it. History reveals that the same beliefs that drive us now were espoused in the 1920s, by Herbert Hoover. The worst years of the Depression were a direct result.



As the dead roll in from Katrina, we need to look at their faces. They were the poor. They were the sick. They were the old. They were the black. They were the most vulnerable members of our society and our government failed them. This is a reality check for the American people and a warning. If government is meant to serve and protect us all, we must be prepared to sacrifice. A small government that encourages personal responsibility over social and cuts its revenue is unable to fulfill the very purpose of government.

upnorthkyosa

 

[michaeledward]

The “No New Taxes - Personal Responsibility – Small Government,” is the real culprit behind the mishandling of this disaster. It is the killer of what could turn out to be tens of thousands of people.

A blogger on the huffingtonpost put it this way:

The right-wing conservatives now in power have the opposite values and principles. Their main value is Rely on individual discipline and initiative.
The central principle: Government has no useful role. The only common good is the sum of individual goods.
It’s the difference between We’re-all-in-this-together and You’re-on-your-own-buddy.
It’s the difference between Every citizen is entitled to protection and You’re only entitled to what you can afford.
It’s the difference between connection and separation.

I have said it before, on this very site.

The current administration was voted for by the American public (I couldn't say that after the 2000 election). We chose this government. We have gotten exactly what we have asked for (except they put off the Estate Tax vote - that's got to piss off Paris Hilton).

George Bush leads a government of 'You're-on-your-own-buddy'; 'You're only entitled to what you can afford.' He represents us, and is giving us exactly what we asked for.

In the end, it's the folks in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama that ended up reaping what we, as a country, have sown.

Although, it really burns me that Barbour is looking for a federal hand out .... he has always been one of the 'starve-the-beast' crowd.

 

[MisterMike]

The “No New Taxes - Personal Responsibility – Small Government,” is the real culprit behind the mishandling of this disaster. It is the killer of what could turn out to be tens of thousands of people.

I think it's the Tax and Spend - Welfare Mind - Big Gov't Will Save Us All attitude that left these people sitting on their roofs waiting to be saved.

"I don't gotta get out - someone will be by in a day or so to give me some 'High-Quality H2O'. " -- oh, and a debit card.

 

[michaeledward]

I think it's the Tax and Spend - Welfare Mind - Big Gov't Will Save Us All attitude that left these people sitting on their roofs waiting to be saved.

"I don't gotta get out - someone will be by in a day or so to give me some 'High-Quality H2O'. " -- oh, and a debit card.

MisterMike ...

you do remember that whole, 'Republican Revolution', don't you? Contract with America ... Gingrich ... redistricting ... welfare reform ... permanent Republican Majority ... 'Drown the baby in the bathtub' ... Supreme Court Picking a President in 2000 (do you think some of the justices are pissed off now ... with Roberts headed to the big chair?)

Tax and Spend is code word for 'Democrat' (even if it isn't accurate). We are out of power ... don't you try to blame this on us.

And who's the fattest person in line at the government trough ... (other than Limbaugh) ... Barbour.

 

[michaeledward]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html


Seems the President of the United States ... when declaring a state of emergency for Louisiana ... forgot that New Orleans was part of Louisiana.

Jefferson Parrish .. St. Charles Parrish .. Orleans Parrish .. St. James Parrish .. St. John the Baptist Parrish .. West Baton Rouge Parrish .. and quite a few others seem to be missing from the Press release above.

Northern Louisiana was covered though .. (whew) .. Just the coastline was ******.

 

[Phoenix44]

The President and FEMA. There should have been troops, national guard, buses and boats in there BEFORE the hurricane hit. I know so many good people with the NYC Dept of Health who are highly qualified who could have gotten the job done. Instead Bush appointed his buddy, "Brownie" who had no experience--and it shows.

People voted for this president because they thought he could keep us safe. If he can't even manage a predictable natural disaster which gave us plenty of warning, it's pretty clear we're on our own in the event of a surprise terrorist attack.

 

[Makalakumu]

People voted for this president because they thought he could keep us safe. If he can't even manage a predictable natural disaster which gave us plenty of warning, it's pretty clear we're on our own in the event of a surprise terrorist attack.

Well, hell, when its every man for themselves, who do you think is going to run things...

 

[Marginal]

I think it's the Tax and Spend - Welfare Mind - Big Gov't Will Save Us All attitude that left these people sitting on their roofs waiting to be saved.

"I don't gotta get out - someone will be by in a day or so to give me some 'High-Quality H2O'. " -- oh, and a debit card.

"The levies won't break"

-Dubya Bush

"The levies are fine."

-Brownie doing a rootin' job

 

[Knarfan]

I wonder how many people couldn't live with that.


And isn't he the guy who argued that HE could protect US better than Kerry a year or so ago?

Mike,
I meant that I could live with your point of view. I really don't know for sure what the feds time line should have been but, I also said that all branches of the gov could have done a better job. I just don't think Bush deserves all or even most of the blame. I think that this is where our opinions differ. I think the locals may be more to blame, I'm talking about the Gov & Mayor. I just don't think that they responded properly before the hurricane & obviously the people who refused to listen to the evacuation orders really turned it into a chaotic situation & the police were left holding the bag & it didn't seem like anyone was helping them. Basically what I'm saying is I don't think that there was enough leadership within the local government. The Gov & Mayor should be working together not against each other.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

The President and FEMA. There should have been troops, national guard, buses and boats in there BEFORE the hurricane hit.

Check your facts. They were in place and more were being mobilized.

 

[michaeledward]

Mike,
I meant that I could live with your point of view. I really don't know for sure what the feds time line should have been but, I also said that all branches of the gov could have done a better job. I just don't think Bush deserves all or even most of the blame. I think that this is where our opinions differ. I think the locals may be more to blame, I'm talking about the Gov & Mayor. I just don't think that they responded properly before the hurricane & obviously the people who refused to listen to the evacuation orders really turned it into a chaotic situation & the police were left holding the bag & it didn't seem like anyone was helping them. Basically what I'm saying is I don't think that there was enough leadership within the local government. The Gov & Mayor should be working together not against each other.

I think the Governor and the Mayor were working before hand. However, the enormity of the disaster easily overwhelmed what they were able to do.

So, let me rattle off a couple of points which may, or may not, be relevant.

The New Orleans disaster plans always anticipated that approximately 20% of the citizens would not be able to, or would not choose to, evacuate. It doesn't matter whether the Mayor, Governor, or President says you must leave; some people are not going to leave all of their wordly possessions behind, unattended.

Here is a letter from Governor Blanco to the President.
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

The Airlines (Federal Aviation Adminstration) told callers on Saturday, that all Sunday flights would be able to depart as scheduled. Many people were stranded when the Sunday flights were cancelled.

The emergency shelters in New Orleans were opened on Sunday at noontime. I don't know how long it was anticipated the shelters would need to function, but I am guessing even the worst scenario did not anticipate 5 days with no power, no food, no water. New Orleans Emergency plan anticipated the need to shelter 100,000 citizens.
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

The President declared a state of emergency for Louisiana on August 27th.

This declaration, by its very issuance, made Hurrican Katrina an 'Incident of National Significance'.

An Incident of National Significance is a specific item from the National Response Plan.

The National Response Plan makes the Department of Homeland Security the primary coordinator of all emergency proceedures for the Incident of National Significance.

The National Response Plan was effective in December of 2004, and on March 1st, it became the 'official federal government rules' on how to handle a catastrophe. If the Hurricane was not an Incident of National Significance, then indeed the Mayor and the Governor would be more on the hook ... but, you can't have it both ways; either it is an Incident of National Significance, which means DHS is the 'go-to-guy' {read FEMA}, or the Hurricane is not an Incident of National Significance ... in which case, I want my money back ... what the hell is DHS doing anyhow?

Yes ... the NRP says everything is handled at the lowest level possible (All incidents are handled at the lowest possible organizational and jurisdictional level.) This is what all the Administration spin masters are saying .... but keep reading the paragraph .... where it continues (For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures.)

On Monday, August 29, while the hurricane was destroying 4 of the President's favorite red states .... he was eating birthday cake on a runway with a onetime political foe. Gee, that's thoughtful.

On Tuesday, August 30, Nero fiddled while Rome burned.



P.S. More on the director of FEMA.

Seems that Mr. Brown has done an extensive job of 'padding' his resume. The New Republic (why do they Hate America) has an expose about his real 'legal' backgound.

Brown's biography on FEMA's website reports that he's a graduate of the Oklahoma City University School of Law. This is not, to put it charitably, a well-known institution. For example, I've been a law professor for the past 15 years and have never heard of it. Of more relevance is the fact that, until 2003, the school was not even a member of the Association of American Law Schools (AALS)--the organization that, along with the American Bar Association, accredits the nation's law schools. Most prospective law students won't even consider applying to a non-AALS law school unless they have no other option, because many employers have a policy of not considering graduates of non-AALS institutions.

Normally, an attorney practicing law in a state for ten years would have left a record of his experience in public documents. But just about the only evidence of Brown's Colorado legal career is the Web page he submitted to Findlaw.com, an Internet site for people seeking legal representation.

 

[Phoenix44]

Check your facts. They were in place and more were being mobilized.

I DID check my facts. Everything I've read tells me that buses, National Guard, and troops were NOT evacuating people from New Orleans BEFORE the hurricane hit. The Superdome, which had long been expected to be used in the event of a major emergency, was NOT stocked with food or water.

 

[Tgace]

The thing people always fail to realize is that when you bring in thousands of troops you have to transport, shelter, feed, water and care for those troops just like you do for the people they are evacuating. Unless there was pre-staged and pre planned operations in place for a long time before this hit, this time lag was bound to happen....

 

[Knarfan]

I DID check my facts. Everything I've read tells me that buses, National Guard, and troops were NOT evacuating people from New Orleans BEFORE the hurricane hit. The Superdome, which had long been expected to be used in the event of a major emergency, was NOT stocked with food or water.

Just one more thing to add to the Superdome point. It was reported today that they have discovered severly mutilated bodys at the SUPERDOME location. Looks like they have enough evidence to launch the investigation into the rape & murder claims

. Fox news is supposed to interview a medical doctor that was at the Superdome during the hurricane. It sounds to me like he is going to confirm alot of the stories that we have heard in the media. Interview is schedualed for Fri.

 

[Knarfan]

The thing people always fail to realize is that when you bring in thousands of troops you have to transport, shelter, feed, water and care for those troops just like you do for the people they are evacuating. Unless there was pre-staged and pre planned operations in place for a long time before this hit, this time lag was bound to happen....

Sounds logical to me.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing that occurs to me is that I didn't think FEMA or the Federal Government usually get involved until *after* something has happened. Usually a disaster hits, the governor gets out the National Guard for his state, if it's really bad then he declares a State-leve State-Of-Emergency or whatever and asks the Feds for help. Granted that's usually for things like Tornado or Earthquake where there isn't much warning, but I really don't remember there being much coordinated federal response to, say Hurricane Andrew prior to it hitting.

I think this is the first natural disaster I've seen where people are saying after the fact that the federal government should've done more before.

 

[Knarfan]

I think the Governor and the Mayor were working before hand. However, the enormity of the disaster easily overwhelmed what they were able to do.

So, let me rattle off a couple of points which may, or may not, be relevant.

The New Orleans disaster plans always anticipated that approximately 20% of the citizens would not be able to, or would not choose to, evacuate. It doesn't matter whether the Mayor, Governor, or President says you must leave; some people are not going to leave all of their wordly possessions behind, unattended.

Here is a letter from Governor Blanco to the President.
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976


The Airlines (Federal Aviation Adminstration) told callers on Saturday, that all Sunday flights would be able to depart as scheduled. Many people were stranded when the Sunday flights were cancelled.

The emergency shelters in New Orleans were opened on Sunday at noontime. I don't know how long it was anticipated the shelters would need to function, but I am guessing even the worst scenario did not anticipate 5 days with no power, no food, no water. New Orleans Emergency plan anticipated the need to shelter 100,000 citizens.
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

The President declared a state of emergency for Louisiana on August 27th.

This declaration, by its very issuance, made Hurrican Katrina an 'Incident of National Significance'.

An Incident of National Significance is a specific item from the National Response Plan.

The National Response Plan makes the Department of Homeland Security the primary coordinator of all emergency proceedures for the Incident of National Significance.

The National Response Plan was effective in December of 2004, and on March 1st, it became the 'official federal government rules' on how to handle a catastrophe. If the Hurricane was not an Incident of National Significance, then indeed the Mayor and the Governor would be more on the hook ... but, you can't have it both ways; either it is an Incident of National Significance, which means DHS is the 'go-to-guy' {read FEMA}, or the Hurricane is not an Incident of National Significance ... in which case, I want my money back ... what the hell is DHS doing anyhow?

Yes ... the NRP says everything is handled at the lowest level possible (All incidents are handled at the lowest possible organizational and jurisdictional level.) This is what all the Administration spin masters are saying .... but keep reading the paragraph .... where it continues (For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures.)

On Monday, August 29, while the hurricane was destroying 4 of the President's favorite red states .... he was eating birthday cake on a runway with a onetime political foe. Gee, that's thoughtful.

On Tuesday, August 30, Nero fiddled while Rome burned.



P.S. More on the director of FEMA.

Seems that Mr. Brown has done an extensive job of 'padding' his resume. The New Republic (why do they Hate America) has an expose about his real 'legal' backgound.

I think your points are relevent. No argument here.

 

[michaeledward]

The thing people always fail to realize is that when you bring in thousands of troops you have to transport, shelter, feed, water and care for those troops just like you do for the people they are evacuating. Unless there was pre-staged and pre planned operations in place for a long time before this hit, this time lag was bound to happen....

What the hell is 'pre-staged'?

What the hell is 'pre-planned'?

Either a thing staged or it ins't. It is planned or it isn't.

And the people who know, knew it was staged or planned appropriately.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1108268&page=1

FEMA Was Unprepared for Katrina Relief Effort, Insiders Say

All of us were just shaking our heads and saying, 'This isn't going to be enough, and the director has to know this isn't going to be enough.' But nothing more seemed to be happening," said Leo Bosner, president of the FEMA Headquarters Employees Union