The Blame Game

[michaeledward]

One thing that occurs to me is that I didn't think FEMA or the Federal Government usually get involved until *after* something has happened. Usually a disaster hits, the governor gets out the National Guard for his state, if it's really bad then he declares a State-leve State-Of-Emergency or whatever and asks the Feds for help. Granted that's usually for things like Tornado or Earthquake where there isn't much warning, but I really don't remember there being much coordinated federal response to, say Hurricane Andrew prior to it hitting.

I think this is the first natural disaster I've seen where people are saying after the fact that the federal government should've done more before.

FearlessFreep ... I think your reaction may be quite natural, especially for those of us who don't live this stuff every day.

I have learned in the last 10 days, that in fact, there is quite a bit that does go on before a hurricane hits. The President declared the area to be a State of Emergency, to enable federal funding to flow to the area before the Hurricane made landfall. The Governors declared states of emergency and petitioned the President for Federal Assistance before the hurricane made landfall.

Would I have known those things before this thing came crashing down around us? Nope!

But one big difference between Hurricane Andrew and Hurricane Katrina is that September 11th changed everything (or so we have been told). We assembed several bastard-step-children of Federal Agencies into the 'DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY!'. This department is supposed to make sure we are, well, secure in the homeland (does anyone else think that's a stupid word?).

Honestly, before September 11th .... FEMA was a great plot device for Fox Muldar ... and occasionally a heroic organization (thinkin' of the floods in the carolina's).

But take a closer look at the Red Tape that FEMA and DHS created around this disaster. Florida (a state with some experience in hurricanes) wanted to send 500 flat bottomed air-boats to New Orleans, and FEMA made it too difficult to actualy accomplish. Should somebody be screaming bloody murder over that? And that can't be laid at the foot of the Mayor, regardless of Mr. Rove's talking points.

Really ... Google "Katrina FEMA red tape", it's sad.

 

[Tgace]

Try a google on "prestaged military equipment" before you make a fool of yourself....

 

[Sapper6]

All those who think the response to Hurricane Katrina was the United States finest hour, please ignore this thread.

All else, we have been asked to put off "The Blame Game", while there is still work to do. Well, I think there is no time like the present. And, I certainly think the President is not able to lead a successful investigation into "what went right, and what didn't" (he couldn't find out Karl Rove spoke to reports for two years?)

So, who's at fault.

My Vote.

The President.
It's August. In the early weeks of July, the entire White House maps out a low-key itinerary to pretend a 'Working Vacation' is about to take place. (Remember, you never introduce a new product before September). He allowed his entire administration take the month off. A communications director was getting married in Europe. Chief of Staff was in Maine. Veep was in Wyoming. Nobody was around to tell him what to do.

Thinking back at Michael Moore's footage of the President in the classroom ... for seven minutes .... while a student read 'My Pet Goat'. Man, it seems Mr. Moore in the proverbial nail on the head.

This time, there was no one to usher the President to the car, so he just kept dancing to the steps laid out in July.

Sure, there is lots of other incompetency... "Brownie" ... 'Chertoff" ... Watch fo the Memo's. Barbara Bush clearly demonstrated how her son did not become a blabbering idiot without some genetic material.

But, no, all fingers point to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Anyone else?

what a suprise to see you're blaming the president, again you're finger pointing gets old, but i certainly wouldn't expect any less coming from you.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

i posted the above link in another thread relating to this topic, it has even more significance here.

it's quite simple (for most intelligent beings), the local and state government wrote an evacuation plan, even practiced this plan (to complete failure) over the last year. their plan failed miserably. so who's fault is it...? the executive branch of the gov't...? how so...?

which is more fathomable: blaming the president for post-Katrina issues because he's the president. or...blaming the president for post-Katrina issues because it's much easier to blame him because you don't like him.

your reasoning is ignorant and your blame is misplaced. the proof is in the pudding. your sideline critical finger-pointing in a time like this is disgusting, but it's certainly your right to be that way. it's a good thing a majority of this country sees otherwise.

 

[Sapper6]

I DID check my facts. Everything I've read tells me that buses, National Guard, and troops were NOT evacuating people from New Orleans BEFORE the hurricane hit. The Superdome, which had long been expected to be used in the event of a major emergency, was NOT stocked with food or water.

you're right. but the fault does not lie with the bush administration. your statement rings true and all of the above stated responsibilities lie within state and local gov't.

i'm not taking a wild guess in making that assumption. i do it for a living (full-time missouri army national guard and MO-SEMA).

i take all this "federal gov't finger pointing" to much offense, because i know better.

 

[MisterMike]

It's alright Sapper. I'm used to seeing it. Those desperate to regain control would rather complain and point fingers to hinder any efforts the current administration can do for the victims of this natural disaster. It's actually easier than getting off their duffs and doing something constructive. So far we've seen:

1) conspiracy - Bush caused this disaster by not supporting the Kyoto agreement
2) racism - Bush's conjured storm targeted blacks
3) rights violations - Bush and his cronies stifled the free press/covered up the severity/played it down, etc.


It's the same cards played over and over no matter what the circumstances, and those of us with common sense can shrug it off. As for prospective members of the opposing party, I think the menu is looking less and less appetizing. When you can't win anything with facts, better ideas or good character, this is what you resort to.

But good luck in '08. At this rate I'm sure they'll have gained many more intellgient followers.

 

[michaeledward]

your reasoning is ignorant and your blame is misplaced. the proof is in the pudding. your sideline critical finger-pointing in a time like this is disgusting, but it's certainly your right to be that way. it's a good thing a majority of this country sees otherwise.

Sapper6 ... this comes to you from the Whitehouse ...Not me, and my 'ignorant' reasoning .... Pay close attention to the date ..

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
August 27, 2005
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana [/font]

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.

The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures,




​

OK ... so, according to that press release, from somebody, somewhere, the Department of Homeland Security was authorized to coordinate ALL ... EVERYTHING ... ALPHA-OMEGA ... THE KIT AND KABOODLE.. relief efforts.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Now, Let's look at Mr. Williams...

It seems Mr. Williams was, once upon a time, a Washington State legislator. He failed in his campaign for congress. He failed in his campaign for Governor of Washington state. He runs a 'think-tank' (conservative by nature), that's primary mission seems to be to dismantel Washington Educatons Association (a teachers' union of some sort, perhaps).

Why exactly does his opinion count for ****? What the **** does he know about disaster relief efforts?

http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientprofileprinterfriendly.php?recipientID=106

If you ask me ... and by posting the link to his ******** remarks ... it seems Mr. Williams is attempting to become a player in a patronage organization; the Republican Party. A little sucking up to Karl Rove can't hurt, now, can it?

 

[Tgace]

Uhhh..It says FEMA is responsible for "coordinating" all relief efforts. That doesnt relieve local and state gvt. of all responsibility.

 

[michaeledward]

Uhhh..It says FEMA is responsible for "coordinating" all relief efforts. That doesnt relieve local and state gvt. of all responsibility.

That was never my claim.

However, looking at the situation on the ground, by Tuesday morning, the government of the city of New Orleans was unable to affect meaningful support; cuz the town was underwater and without power.

But, I suppose it's OK to continue to Blame them; just because they have no power, and can't move freely throughout the city, why should that let them off the hook.

 

[michaeledward]

From 'All the news that's fit to print'.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/national/nationalspecial/09military.html?ei=5090&en=aa642b8c89c27c01&ex=1283918400&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1126238795-dGCl9WlaN8lbkCHBy9hw2w&pagewanted=print
The debate began after officials realized that Hurricane Katrina had exposed a critical flaw in the national disaster response plans created after the Sept. 11 attacks. According to the administration's senior domestic security officials, the plan failed to recognize that local police, fire and medical personnel might be incapacitated.

 

[Tgace]

Why hadnt New Orleans Pre-planned this event or pre-staged supplies? Why didnt the state gvt. have this planned out way in advance? Why wasnt the fed. government prodding the state and the city to get on the ball? This was a game of russian roulette that started the cylinder spinning back at the turn of the century.

BTW: You "Plan" to known intelligence. i.e. the troops need this much material by this time in this location so we will stage it there. "Pre-staging/planning" is what you do for general preparedness. i.e. The odds are this city will be hit by a disaster. Lets "pre-stage" supplies, fuel, food, water etc. in these various warehouses and monitor them regularly to make sure they are there when we need them. When we need them we grab them and "stage" them in the areas where they will be accessible.

 

[Tgace]

Hell how many Americans built bomb shelters out of fear of the A-bomb but nobody in the Big Easy had a "get out of dodge" plan when they live in a city where you can look up at the bottom of ships as they pass by??

For years, libs. have been telling Americans that the government can provide for you, will provide for you and you deserve to be provided for. Bull. Terrorists killed 3,000 on 9/

11. Poverty stands at 12 percent, despite trillions spent on Great Society programs over the last 40 years. And acts of nature can kill you if you can't get out of the way. Big suprise..nobody could see this coming eh?

Hurricane Katrina once again showed the world that government, be it state or federal, is fallible and indeed can be overwhelmed. Depend on yourself. Get educated. Get smart. Get personal resources. Get off of "public dependence". That is the lesson of Katrina.

And yes, all the local LEO's, EMT's etc have families and homes in the same area. They have to worry about all the same things the "victims" do and have to provide service to these victims at the same time....

 

[michaeledward]

Hell how many Americans built bomb shelters out of fear of the A-bomb but nobody in the Big Easy had a "get out of dodge" plan when they live in a city where you can look up at the bottom of ships as they pass by??

And yes, all the local LEO's, EMT's etc have families and homes in the same area. They have to worry about all the same things the "victims" do and have to provide service to these victims at the same time....

OK ... play it this way ... Let's say a Canadian company in St. Catherine's has a major chemical disaster, threatening everything downwind of it.

How easy do you think it would be to evacuate Buffalo? Let's say the mayor says ... "OK, everybody to Erie. Now!"

What percentage of your own city would leave their homes behind?

I bet no amount 'planning' or 'staging' of goods would make a Buffalo evacuation any more successful than that in New Orleans. But, let's go one further .... let's assume the fire department is incapacitated. Let's assume the Police department can't move through the city?

No matter how you slice it ... it's a cluster-****.

But, who needs a federal government to look out for its citizens anyhow.

 

[Tgace]

Environmentalists to blame

In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, “Under the original plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passesto block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into Lake Pontchartrain.”



“The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into Lake Pontchartrain,” declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P. Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies Institute of Louisiana State University. “This would likely have reduced storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain,” Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on September 6. The professor concluded, “[T]hese floodgates would have alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina.”

Why was this project aborted? As the Times-Picayune wrote, “Those plans were abandoned after environmental advocates successfully sued to stop the projects as too damaging to the wetlands and the lake's eco-system.” (Emphasis added.) Specifically, in 1977, a state environmentalist group known as Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) sued to have it stopped. SOWL stated the proposed Rigolets and Chef Menteur floodgates of the Lake Pontchartrain Hurricane Prevention Project would have a negative effect on the area surrounding Lake Pontchartrain.

 

[Tgace]

OK ... play it this way ... Let's say a Canadian company in St. Catherine's has a major chemical disaster, threatening everything downwind of it.

How easy do you think it would be to evacuate Buffalo? Let's say the mayor says ... "OK, everybody to Erie. Now!"

What percentage of your own city would leave their homes behind?

I bet no amount 'planning' or 'staging' of goods would make a Buffalo evacuation any more successful than that in New Orleans. But, let's go one further .... let's assume the fire department is incapacitated. Let's assume the Police department can't move through the city?

No matter how you slice it ... it's a cluster-****.

But, who needs a federal government to look out for its citizens anyhow.

If the cloud took DAYS to get here and the city had pre-planned to use busses, trucks, etc....

Anyway. How would the feds fare any better in your little scenario? Its a cluster **** no matter how you slice it so you cant blame the local gvts. but the feds should be able to save the day? I dont get it.....

 

[michaeledward]

If the cloud took DAYS to get here and the city had pre-planned to use busses, trucks, etc....
Anyway. How would the feds fare any better in your little scenario?

What precentage of your city, again, would voluntarily up and leave at the behest of the mayor?

The feds would not fare any better ... because the people running the appropriate departments are the same incompetent boobs we are dealing with now.

• Brown ran the International Arabian Horse Association and was hired because he was not a horse person.
• Brown claims to have been a professor of some po-dunk midwest college, but actually was only a student there.
• Brown claims to be a lawyer, but did not attend a college recognized by the American Bar Association.
• Brown claims to have experience running a city's emergency services, but was actually an intern for the mayor.

This is the government we voted for. And as I have said in the past, I am one of the lucky ones ... I can actually come out ahead with this administration in place - I don't need to worry about an Estate tax, but I live high enough up the economic scale so that $3.50 per gallon gas prices don't really bother me too much.

 

[Tgace]

Again...under YOUR leadership. How would the federal gvt. be able to save me??? And Buffalo isnt sitting in a flood plain with pumps running 24/7 to keep it dry. Its not sitting under a huge cliff threatening to fall on it nor is it next to a volcano ready to pull a Mt. Vesuvius at any moment. Could New Orleans have said the same?

 

[Tgace]

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/letters/s_370261.html

Second, the people of New Orleans. If you build your city in the middle of a rifle range, you would expect to get shot. Build in the middle of a flood plain, and sooner or later disaster will occur.

Third, the people of New Orleans who didn't have their own survival plan and money set aside in case of disaster. To expect the government to be your savior could have you sitting in a football arena without food, water and a future.

Fourth, for New Orleans, the city fathers. It was their, and only their, responsibility to have a disaster plan for their city. Opening an arena for thousands of homeless and then going to the media crying "SOS, SOS," is as irresponsible as the thousands of people who ignored the evacuation order and are blaming their plight on everyone else but themselves.

Fifth, the Big Three. The media are blaming government departments for their slow actions: slow on crime control, on crowd control, on medical help. But who would be the first to scream if the National Guard would have swooped down and used its might immediately? The ACLU, the NAACP and the Media -- the Big Three.

Other than the hope that more criticism can be heaped on President Bush, nothing will be gained in the blame game. Most people understand there is no simple answer to a disaster of this magnitude. The blame game might be fun for the media, but it is only adding to the heartbreak of the victims and those who are trying to help.

 

[michaeledward]

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/letters/s_370261.html

Hey, why don't we just start blaming Thomas Jefferson .... I mean, if he didn't buy this stinkin land in the first place

Or even better yet ... let's blame the French..... we bought it from them anyhow. They must have known, two hundred and two years ago, when the sold us the city, that it was a disaster waiting until the exact right time to embarass President Bush for his Hubristic Unilateral action in the Middle East.

What does Nostrodamis say 'bout this anyhow.

Do you always blame the victim? Nice !

 

[Tgace]

Your the one who started this game...theres enough BLAME to go around.

 

[Makalakumu]

Why hadnt New Orleans Pre-planned this event or pre-staged supplies? Why didnt the state gvt. have this planned out way in advance? Why wasnt the fed. government prodding the state and the city to get on the ball?

"Cut taxes at all costs. Drown the baby in the bathwater small government. Every man for themselves."

That is the real culprit here. Conservative governments can't govern effectively in emergencies. Helping people is not their focus...unless you're a billionaire.