The Blame Game

[Tgace]

Name any First world government who could evacuate a major city.Think Paris would be emptied in 3 days? London? Miami?

In Cuba, Castro says LEAVE and everybody leaves. By car, foot, donkey, bus etc. and they head for high ground. They dont sit around waiting for the gvt.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hurricane Katrina once again showed the world that government, be it state or federal, is fallible and indeed can be overwhelmed..

The government was overwhelmed because of direct neglect by the Bush Administration. It didn't have to be this bad. We could have been much better prepared...but that costs money and requires sacrifice. This administration cut taxes on the rich and the poor drowned in response.

Depend on yourself. Get educated. Get smart. Get personal resources. Get off of "public dependence". That is the lesson of Katrina.

You have it so easy. You have no idea how hard it is to this when you grow up in poverty. The amount of priviledge the average middle class person in this country has when compared to the people who are dying is staggering. This little rant is nothing more then a "let them eat cake..."

And then there is the problem of the old and the sick...are they going to follow your advice? Sorry. This philosophy just doesn't work. People are not born with the same advantages and life changes (like age, sickness, and poverty) can cut any avenues of escape.

All I can say is that with a philosophy like this, you better hope that everything goes well in your life, because if it doesn't, you might be the one who gets to drown.

Good Luck.

:soapbox:

 

[Tgace]

As for blaming the administration for the suffering of the "poor", well you can just as easily blame forty plus years of incompetent, and corrupt local government in New Orleans for the presence of so many poor people. And no plan to get them out of a flood basin that people have been predicting would flood for years.

I also find the sentiment amusing on a martial arts board where you hear the "you cant depend on the police to protect you..you are primarily responsible for your own safety..yadda yadda" mantra over and over again. May not apply, but amusing nonetheless.

 

[Tgace]

The bottom line on this disaster is the STATE OF LOUISIANA dropped the ball. There are over 500 buses in New Orleans that are under water that could have been used to evacuate the people who did not have transportation out of town . Instead that opted for the cheap route and rolled the dice that the levee would not break. They lost . But the people they herded in to the two buildings that did not have food, water, proper security etc… paid the price. And I still havent heard exactly what the federal government was supposed to have done or supplied to have made the difference. Cant send military until the governor calls for it. Were the feds supposed to have had 10,000 busses fueled up and ready to pick everybody up? Was FEMA supposed to swoop down in their fleet of black helicopters? What? These things start with a good plan from the City. The state sends in the national guard and the feds co-ordinate and send in the military if needs be. Theres news that the mayor turned away red-cross trucks before the storm for crissakes! Theres blame to go ALL around. To lay it on Bush personally is silly.

 

[Makalakumu]

Blame spreads thinly in this case. President Bush, surely doesn't deserve all of it. However, as I've said before, the mindset is the problem.

 

[Tgace]

As to my "privilege". I went to public school. Went through college on loans with no monetary support from my parents beyond using their washing machine and living with them on breaks. Worked, worked, worked and worked. Joined the military to get some money+benefits and gradually managed to work my way into my current job. What did I do that anybody else couldnt have accomplished? I had no scholarships, no programs (besides free lunch at school), technically lived in "poverty" for a number of years. Had to resort to medicade and food assistance when my firstborn arrived. There is no fate except that which we make for ourselves.

And you make a lot of ***umptions.

 

[michaeledward]

As to my "privilege". I went to public school. Went through college on loans with no monetary support from my parents beyond using their washing machine and living with them on breaks. Worked, worked, worked and worked. Joined the military to get some money, benefits and gradually managed to work my way into my current job. What did I do that anybody else couldnt have accomplished? I had no scholarships, no programs, technically lived in "poverty" for a number of years. Had to resort to medicade and food assistance when my firstborn arrived. There is no fate except that which we make for ourselves.

And you make a lot of ***umptions.

Tom, a toast to you. I have to give you credit for standing behind the courage of your convictions.

 

[Tgace]

Tom, a toast to you. I have to give you credit for standing behind the courage of your convictions.

:asian:


:cheers:

 

[Tgace]

The government was overwhelmed because of direct neglect by the Bush Administration. It didn't have to be this bad. We could have been much better prepared...but that costs money and requires sacrifice. This administration cut taxes on the rich and the poor drowned in response.

If this would have happened under Clintons watch things would have been different? Regans? Carters? New Orleans was under a threat only for the last 2 terms?

And the up here, the odds are Ill freeze before Ill drown.

 

[michaeledward]

If this would have happened under Clintons watch things would have been different? Regans? Carters? New Orleans was under a threat only for the last 2 terms?

And the up here, the odds are Ill freeze before Ill drown.

Oddly, James Lee Witt actually had some experience in emergency management.

FEMA has become a posting for political operatives in the Bush campaigns.

Look at the leadership of this organization since 2001.

 

[Makalakumu]

As to my "privilege". I went to public school. Went through college on loans with no monetary support from my parents beyond using their washing machine and living with them on breaks. Worked, worked, worked and worked. Joined the military to get some money+benefits and gradually managed to work my way into my current job. What did I do that anybody else couldnt have accomplished? I had no scholarships, no programs (besides free lunch at school), technically lived in "poverty" for a number of years. Had to resort to medicade and food assistance when my firstborn arrived. There is no fate except that which we make for ourselves.

And you make a lot of ***umptions.

I should compare notes with you. I think you would be surprised.

In the richest country in the world, I've seen people freeze to death. I've seen kids living in card board boxes. I've watched people starve and I've gone hungry myself. Some people really have no idea how bad it is for a great many people.

The very fact that you are able to do the above is a testament to the stability in your life. For others, I know for a fact that it is not possible to do what you did without a lot of help. And that is no assumption.

I work with the urban poor. I know what their lives are like. I know what their families are like and I am keenly aware of the resources they have. For the poor of New Orleans, the support, the family, and the resources to leave were not present.

We can exert a certain amount of control over our lives, but there is always an environmental component. And no matter how hard this administration tries, this rediculous "opportunity society" will never erase that. The events of New Orleans and future events like it will continually thrust back into Americas face...

 

[ginshun]

Blame spreads thinly in this case. President Bush, surely doesn't deserve all of it. However, as I've said before, the mindset is the problem.

Ya, the mindset of "We don't have to help ourselves, because the federal government should take care of us" that is perpetuated by people who would rather us have a socialist/communist government.

And saying that the National Guard and FEMA should have been in place in New Orleans BEFORE the storm hit is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. If they had been there they would be victims along with everyone else. You can't put rescure crews in the middle of the storm and then expect them to immediately spring into action as soon as the rain stops.

And what happens if the storm hadn't been as bad as it was? How much time and money would have been wasted then. Are you people really claiming that National Guard and FEMA should be dispatched to all costal cities every time a hurricane is predicited to hit? You've got to be kidding me.

Some of you seem to think that the federal govnt should have been in NO before the storm enforcing a manditory evacuation, even though they were not asked to by the state or local governments. Who was supposed to make that descision? Bush? Is that really the kind of president and the federal govnt to have? Ones that deside for itself when to declare a police state, move into a city and forcibly remove people from their homes? Whithout any say from the local govnts?

There is plenty of blame to go around, but IMO the bulk of it belongs with the state and local govn't of LA and NO. They have known for years that there levee system would not hold up to a storm of his magnitude, and did nothing to fix it. It was only a matter of time.

I should compare notes with you. I think you would be surprised.

In the richest country in the world, I've seen people freeze to death. I've seen kids living in card board boxes. I've watched people starve and I've gone hungry myself. Some people really have no idea how bad it is for a great many people.

The very fact that you are able to do the above is a testament to the stability in your life. For others, I know for a fact that it is not possible to do what you did without a lot of help. And that is no assumption.

I work with the urban poor. I know what their lives are like. I know what their families are like and I am keenly aware of the resources they have. For the poor of New Orleans, the support, the family, and the resources to leave were not present.

We can exert a certain amount of control over our lives, but there is always an environmental component. And no matter how hard this administration tries, this rediculous "opportunity society" will never erase that. The events of New Orleans and future events like it will continually thrust back into Americas face... __________________

So what exactly is your solution to this? That the federal government should step in and just give money to the people need it or claim to need it? Until all people are up to a certain level? Where should the money come from? From me? I am sure that I am much better off than many, and I am thankful for that, but does that mean that a poertion of my income should be taken away and given to somebody else? That seems to be what you are getting at.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Is that what you are getting at?

No thanks.

 

[michaeledward]

And saying that the National Guard and FEMA should have been in place in New Orleans BEFORE the storm hit is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. If they had been there they would be victims along with everyone else. You can't put rescure crews in the middle of the storm and then expect them to immediately spring into action as soon as the rain stops.

Gee, that's almost like saying 'Pre-planning should have been done.'.

But, who exactly is saying that? I, certainly, am not. What I am saying, however, is that Tuesday morning, when everybody wakes up to four feet of water ... . the best thing for everyone to do, is get in plane and fly to California to compare Iraq to World War II.

At that point, having the city underwater, why couldn't the mayor do more? Except that, perhaps, the city was underwater.

Some of you seem to think that the federal govnt should have been in NO before the storm enforcing a manditory evacuation, even though they were not asked to by the state or local governments. Who was supposed to make that descision? Bush? Is that really the kind of president and the federal govnt to have? Ones that deside for itself when to declare a police state, move into a city and forcibly remove people from their homes? Whithout any say from the local govnts?

Well, I'm not saying that either ... what I am saying is that when the scope of the disaster becomes so big that the Major News Network Anchors are travelling from hotels in SUV's that require armed guards to threaten people trying to escape the floods, somebody should start moving something. Specifically FEMA should start moving more than 1,300 agents into place .. cuz that ain't enough.

Check out Brian Williams this afternoon on Last Nights 'The Daily Show'.

 

[ginshun]

Check out Brian Williams this afternoon on Last Nights 'The Daily Show'.

Sorry, no cable.

Even if I had it, I don't think that 'The Daily Show' (while quite hilarious) is what I would consider a real credible or unbiased news source.

 

[arnisador]

The FEMA head is out of N.O., and VADM Allen is in:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/hurricanes_and_tropical_storms

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

More evidence on the culpability of the Louisiana state government and the city of New Orleans.


http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200509\NAT20050907a.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462_pf.html

Both address the ridiculous claims about how the cuts in funding were the cause of the disaster. Do yourselves a favor and read both of them.

No, I didn't provide helpful snippets. Sometimes they are useful, but other times they reduce the debate to sound-byte quoting.

 

[michaeledward]

More evidence on the culpability of the Louisiana state government and the city of New Orleans.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200509\NAT20050907a.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462_pf.html

Both address the ridiculous claims about how the cuts in funding were the cause of the disaster. Do yourselves a favor and read both of them.

No, I didn't provide helpful snippets. Sometimes they are useful, but other times they reduce the debate to sound-byte quoting.

The first link has been removed.
I have been aware of the information in the second link for some days .. .

Wait ... before you bring up the argument that Louisiana gets more money for the Army Corps of Engineers than even California .... let me answer that too ...

That's because Louisiana is where the floods are going to be!




Look at the bright side ... the feds saved a hundred million dollars in cuts to requests from that communist Blanco.

Except now, it's going to cost all of us a hundred billion dollars to put the friggin place back together.

With any chance on our side, the speculation about the number of deaths being way below the earlier guesses will turn out to have some accuracy.

 

[michaeledward]

Sorry, no cable.

Even if I had it, I don't think that 'The Daily Show' (while quite hilarious) is what I would consider a real credible or unbiased news source.

Yeah ... and it could be that the truth hurts.

Brian Williams is an anchor at NBC ... ****ing liberal bastards they are ...

He was in the Superdome when Katrina made landfall.
He was in a hotel in New Orleans on Tuesday morning when his car was "up to the windows" in water (you remember, that's the day the President flew to California).

So, instead of listening to trained journalists tell us, first hand, about what it was like in New Orleans when the Hurrican hit; when the city flooded ... you just go on listening to that Islamic Owned Newscorp radio station.

 

[Tgace]

Poverty in the United States

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

For most Americans, the word "poverty" suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as "poor" by the Census Bureau fit that description. While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. Most of America's "poor" live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest-income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.1

The typical American defined as "poor" by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians.

But the living conditions of the average poor person should not be taken to mean that all poor Americans live without hardship. There is a wide range of living conditions among the poor. Roughly a third of poor households do face material hardships such as overcrowding, intermittent food shortages, or difficulty obtaining medical care. However, even these households would be judged to have high living standards in comparison to most other people in the world.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

The first link has been removed.
I have been aware of the information in the second link for some days .. .

In that case, you should be well aware of how the culpability lies in the local government regarding the spending and funds for flood-related activities.

The first article was even stronger and more direct, but it has been scrubbed from google cache as well. I will update once I find out if it was erroneous or some other reason (publishing, usually).
But if you read closely the article that you "knew about" already, you would have found more information such as the fact that Bush spent more money on the levee funding than did Clinton...I actually agree with Clinton here. He cut 98 flood control relief programs ten years ago, saying that it should be a locally funded project rather than a national one.

"the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years. Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the chief of the Corps, has said that in any event, more money would not have prevented the drowning of the city, since its levees were designed to protect against a Category 3 storm, and the levees that failed were already completed projects."

You fail to see the point of the article. It isn't that Louisiana receives more money for flood control, but for all civic-work projects than does California. The problem is not a lack of money at all whatsoever. They had plenty of money for funding:

"But hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation and approved by the Corps, often after economic analyses that turned out to be inaccurate. Despite a series of independent investigations criticizing Army Corps construction projects as wasteful pork-barrel spending, Louisiana's representatives have kept bringing home the bacon."

There wasn't local political will to achieve the funding (which as I noted was higher than Clinton's).

We thought all the projects were important -- not just levees," Breaux said. "Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but navigation projects were critical to our economic survival."
Overall, Army Corps funding has remained relatively constant for decades, despite the "Program Growth Initiative" launched by agency generals in 1999 without telling their civilian bosses in the Clinton administration. The Bush administration has proposed cuts in the Corps budget, and has tried to shift the agency's emphasis from new construction to overdue maintenance. But most of those proposals have died quietly on Capitol Hill, and the administration has not fought too hard to revive them.