The Bio-Mechanics of Kung-Fu

[monster123]

I dabbled in other martial arts, but I have taken an interest in kung-fu.
A friend showed me the bio-mechanics of a kung fu punch. Basically, I stood in the bow and arrow stance. Relaxed my upper, body, shoulders, and arm. And twisted my waist and threw my arm out like a whip. IT may take some practice, but right now, I don't believe I generated the same amount of power compared to the way I usuually punch.

Then he showed some of the more intricate stance training work. Needless to say, holding these stances was strenuous and even uncomfortable.

I have some questions. Please correct me if my observations are incorrect.
I read an article about an chinese style called Baji Quan, that a person has to train in about a year in stance training before they can utilize the proper punching mechanics of kung-fu.

Why so long? Do the tendons in the legs have to be so developed first during stance training before proper kung-fu mechanics can be utilized?

What are the benefits of punching in such a manner? I've read that a person can punch with a lot power without tension and strain. But having done the stance training, it seems there is more tension and strain than other methods of punching. The tension may not be in the upper body, but it is certainly in the lower body.

Why learn this type of punching method instead of the punching methods
of other styles like boxing or karate where the mechanics seem quicker to learn?

Are the bio-mechanics for kicking the same?

I read that one of the benefits of punching in such a way is that a person can produce a powerful punch in a short range without winding up or telegraphing the punch.

However, in order to punch does a person always have to be in a standing, linear posture position. Can they punch hunched over or on the ground?

Wing Chun seems to utilized different body mechanics. They seem to punch straight on without the twisting motion.

I read that it only takes maybe 2 years of Wing Chun to be proficient in it. However, they too claim that they can generate a lot of punching power at close range, like the close range punches Bruce Lee made famous.

So basically my question is what are the benefits of learning these more complex strange body mechanicswhen in styles like Wing Chun the body mechanics seem more easily learned?

 

[Xue Sheng]

There use to be many Chinese martial arts that required this. Many of the Chinese and if my memory serves me correctly Japanese styles required stance training. Sometimes standing in a horse stance for a year or more before you began to learn other parts of the style. This proved dedication and help strengthened the legs. Leg strength is very important to martial arts and when I have trained stances I always have felt my ability and stamina increase.

Aikido, I believe, requires basic training that can look and feel strange at the beginning. As does Karate, Judo, Jujitsu and just about any other Martial art I can think of. Admittedly some can feel more awkward than others.

As for punching from these stances, this is training, not real world application, this is not to say that you may not end up in that stance in a fight. But I am guessing what you are describing is for training purposes.
You have to start with basics in all forms of fighting; it is just that the basics for different styles of fighting are different. And these different styles of fighting can be designed for different applications.

There can be many different punching methods within the same kung fu style. And not all kung fu styles are big on punching or even kicking. Some put more emphasis on joint locking and ground fighting; some, many, incorporate all of the above. A martial art that can only strike from a single direction is useless. So there are always other directions and types of strikes

And - Telegraphing is bad; it gives away what you are going to do to your opponent

I have trained very little external kung fu styles, I train mainly internal styles. And Xingyi, for example, you train a lot of standing, (and it never ends). To make this explanation as short as possible, you train to be able to relax. If you train Xingyi over time the power that can be generated for punches both short and long range is phenomenal. And most Xingyi people I have talked to say the same thing, "Fights are over in 2 or 3 moves". By the way I am no where near that proficint..yet.

Xingyi you are very relaxed right up until contact, then you immediately relax again. The basic idea is that none of your muscles and tendons are restricting the power; therefore you are able to generate more power for striking.

In Tai Chi you stay relaxed for the entire punch. I have been able to produce a lot of power with a Tai Chi punch and feel little of no pressure on my hand, wrist, arm, etc.

It was explained to me once by Sifu that in a hard form when you punch, the force is not deep and spreads out over the surface that you hit, in a soft style the surface area of the strike is much smaller and the penetration is much deeper.

Bagua is circular, Xingyi is considered linear (but do not get fooled into thinking either of these styles only strikes circularly or linearly, it will get you hurt). White crane, I believe can strike from many different directions, Shaolin as well. Wing Chun tends to be an upright fighting style that uses mainly straight punches. I have seen Southern mantis go to the ground and kick, punch from standing, lying on the ground and from many different directions. Believe when I tell you, it is difficult to deal with when you face it, but not impossible.

I do not find it strange to be able to relax in your stance. Although you can become proficient in Wing Chun in a couple of years, you are far from mastery of Wing Chun. Also there are some "Strange stances” you have to train in Wing Chun too, and a lot of sit ups and push ups. To be come proficient in Wing Chun, as with any martial art, it takes a lot of training and from what I have seen with Wing Chun, very very hard training.

Many of the styles I have trained are internal (the following is an over simplification) the power for striking comes from the ground (leg stregth is very important here - you must have a good root) and is directed by the waist for strikes. And if you are training internal styles it can take much longer than a couple of years to become proficient. But this training is necessary to get the power to where you want it to go with as little resistance as possible. I can also say using internal styles I have suffered fewer injuries that I did when I used external styles. I previously trained Jujitsu and Taekwondo, which by the way also train strange stances.

Note: There are Northern and Southern styles of Kung Fu, Wing Chun is beyond any shadow of doubt, Southern.

But in the long run it comes down to what you like to train and what fits you best.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think Xue Sheng has given a good answer. Keep in mind, there is no generic "kung fu biomechanics". There are so many different kung fu systems that are different enough stylistically that the biomechanics can also be quite different (as well as having some similarities).

In Tibetan White Crane, our basic stance is fairly high and relaxed, altho low stances are also used. We punch using a full-body pivot that starts with the feet, goes thru the legs and hips, up the torso and shoulders, down the arm to the fist, but it all happens almost at once. In addition, we use an exaggerated reverse-pivot with the other hand, which helps drive the striking hand forward. This is done very relaxed. What I discovered when I began working this kind of punch on the heavy bag was the ability to deliver tremendous power almost immediately. It did not take months or years of trainiing to develop the power with this method. I was very quickly striking as hard, or harder than I was before, but my effort in delivering the punch was much less due to the relaxation and reliance on the pivot and torque. That is, paradoxically, the difficult part: relaxation. We are so used to relying on physical strength that it is easy to fall into old habits. With Crane, once you begin to tense up and rely on strength, your power immediately diminishes.

 

[dmax999]

Here is the short of it. If you tense muscles for a punch, like in karate, the punch becomes slower because you have to fight the tension. This is compensated by requiring a longer travel to overcome the tension and get the fist up to speed. Muscle tension in a punch becomes a push instead of a strike.

When punching what you really want is your fist hitting the target as quick as possible and moving as fast as possible. This is done by keeping the arms relaxed through the strike. Professional boxers know this and this is how they punch.

For more power you use your body in the strike among other "tricks". I've become convinced that fa-jing in Tai Chi is the strongest strike someone's body is able to produce. Anyone who punches with the same rules, and many kung-fu styles do, gain the same benefit.

There is MUCH more to this topic, but I just wanted to let you know you are on the right path, but it is not usually easy to understand or seem like common sense.

 

[7starmantis]

A friend showed me the bio-mechanics of a kung fu punch. Basically, I stood in the bow and arrow stance. Relaxed my upper, body, shoulders, and arm. And twisted my waist and threw my arm out like a whip. IT may take some practice, but right now, I don't believe I generated the same amount of power compared to the way I usuually punch.

Yes, but remember this is only one drill to learn one type of one punch. This is a general drill to start learning punching. Also, its not a static punch, it can be done from differnt angles, different stances, different speeds, etc. Its just starting to teach relaxation. However, on the other hand, too much relaxation can be just as bad as too much muscle. Also, it really depends on the style of kung fu as many focus on different principles and approaches. For instance, in mantis we dont have to really punch as hard as we can since we focus on using the other personal energy and making them "walk right into your punch". Using their forward momentum I dont need to hit them hard enough to break my hand, combine the two forces and you have a very powerful attack.

Then he showed some of the more intricate stance training work. Needless to say, holding these stances was strenuous and even uncomfortable.

Yes, they can be very, very uncomfortable and stenuous....but thats the point of them, they are to help build your body, muscle and even familiarize yourself with pain.

I have some questions. Please correct me if my observations are incorrect.

Your question are good, but remember that stance training is just one piece of the puzzle so to speak. You hold stances for long periods of time so that when you need them for short periods of time you have absolutely no problem doing them. Many people teach stances first as its the best way to build the body, learn the basics, start learning about your own center of gravity, push through pain and tough training, etc, all in one.

In my opinion its not so much that you can't do kung fu without the year of stances, but that your kung fu improves greatly with that type of training. Its the old adage "craw before you walk" thing.

Also, the differences in technique from kung fu to boxing is great. Its simply a differing of methods. Kung fu generally works with relaxation, and using the full body to perform or generate power. You may sense great strain or tension now but think if you trained your stances for a whole year, would you still have strain or tension when doing a few punches? You could properly move your body, properly generate power without the worry of fatigued muscles or sloppy form from being tired.

Why learn this type of punching method instead of the punching methods
of other styles like boxing or karate where the mechanics seem quicker to learn?

Well, does quicker equal better? It all depends on what your reasons for training are. Alot of kung fu movement is unatural and must be trained hard to become instinctive...does that make it inefective? I guess if you needed to fight a skilled fighter next week, maybe, but what about along the timeline of your entire life?

Wing Chun seems to utilized different body mechanics. They seem to punch straight on without the twisting motion.

I'm no Wing Chun guy so take this for what its worth, but the WC I've seen most certainly uses waist and twisting motions. One common mistake when watching kung fu is overlooking that which is not obvious. I have friends watch our fighting and see someone go down and ask, "why did he fall down, it didn't look like he got hit at all"?
The twisting or movement of the waist may be very small, very unnoticable, but still there. Plus, coupled with the yielding learned in most kung fu, a person can hurt themselves pretty bad without you (the kung fu person) having to exert much energy at all.

So basically my question is what are the benefits of learning these more complex strange body mechanicswhen in styles like Wing Chun the body mechanics seem more easily learned?

Well, thats a question thats debated quite a bit. Wing Chun follows the philosophy of simplicity. Have fewer techniques that you can master quicker. Is that better than having alot of techniques that you must master slowly? Again, it depends on your goals for training. What is the issue with time? I do think your oversimplifying WC altogether, but even so, sometimes things that take time and effort are deffinitely worth grasping, you just have to ask if its worth it to you.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

-MT Mod Note-
Moved to General Section for better visibility and possibly better responses.

-7starmantis-
-MT Super Mod-
Adam C

 

[brothershaw]

THe body mechanics in wing chun are complex, the thing is in a good practioner alot of the motions are very small and happen very fast so if you dont know what to look for yo wont notice it. It also takes years to get there.

From one style to the next the stances and movements will vary, what you do for wing chun you wont do for xing yi,or tai chi etc.

The 2-3 years to master wing chun is a big myth there is alot of fine points and things to learn.
However if you are hard worker in 2-3 years you should know enough stuff to give someone trouble in a fight as far as handspeed , reaction time etc, but that depends on the person, any style should give you something within 2-3 years , some more than others, but definitely not mastery.

 

[BlackTiger1]

THe body mechanics in wing chun are complex, the thing is in a good practioner alot of the motions are very small and happen very fast so if you dont know what to look for yo wont notice it. It also takes years to get there.

From one style to the next the stances and movements will vary, what you do for wing chun you wont do for xing yi,or tai chi etc.

The 2-3 years to master wing chun is a big myth there is alot of fine points and things to learn.
However if you are hard worker in 2-3 years you should know enough stuff to give someone trouble in a fight as far as handspeed , reaction time etc, but that depends on the person, any style should give you something within 2-3 years , some more than others, but definitely not mastery.

Greetings and salutations BrotherShaw. You have made a very good point. There’re so many Masters and Grand Masters meaning so many people who want everything without the hard work. Even a boxer needs to train for at least six months before they are able to throw a proper jab. And at less another year to a year and a half before they can understand where the power of any punch comes from. In-fact a lot of boxers without the proper training develop bad habits; they drop their hands after throwing a punch not realizing their opponents can and will take advantage of this laziness. The rule is hands up and chin down. Any real fighter will train harder than anyone else if he is smart. One should always train as if they are training to beat themselves.

 

[Rook]

Here is the short of it. If you tense muscles for a punch, like in karate, the punch becomes slower because you have to fight the tension. This is compensated by requiring a longer travel to overcome the tension and get the fist up to speed. Muscle tension in a punch becomes a push instead of a strike.

When I did shotokan, the push was intentional. The theory is that you are both striking and unbalancing your opponent simultaneously. Frequently palm strikes are used for the same reason - spread out the strike to push and unbalance the opponent. Depending on what you want to do, you don't necessarily have to strike that way - if you watch video of Mas Oyama, for instance, he uses both varying degrees of tension in his arm depending on the effect he wants - most karate people at a high enough level will work with that as well.

When punching what you really want is your fist hitting the target as quick as possible and moving as fast as possible. This is done by keeping the arms relaxed through the strike. Professional boxers know this and this is how they punch.

Agreed. Most people outside certain Japanese and Korean styles try to keep the arm relaxed as much as possible.

 

[HG1]

A friend showed me the bio-mechanics of a kung fu punch. Basically, I stood in the bow and arrow stance. Relaxed my upper, body, shoulders, and arm. And twisted my waist and threw my arm out like a whip. IT may take some practice, but right now, I don't believe I generated the same amount of power compared to the way I usuually punch.

The nervous system needs to learn the new punching mechanics; that requires practice.

Then he showed some of the more intricate stance training work. Needless to say, holding these stances was strenuous and even uncomfortable.

Stance training is an important part of kung fu. You build from the ground up. In some CMA's the hard work & pain of stance work you experienced is a right of passage. :karate:

I read an article about an chinese style called Baji Quan, that a person has to train in about a year in stance training before they can utilize the proper punching mechanics of kung-fu.

Why so long? Do the tendons in the legs have to be so developed first during stance training before proper kung-fu mechanics can be utilized?

What are the benefits of punching in such a manner? I've read that a person can punch with a lot power without tension and strain. But having done the stance training, it seems there is more tension and strain than other methods of punching. The tension may not be in the upper body, but it is certainly in the lower body.

The tension in the legs/stance create a stable foundation, it also gets the largest bones & muscles of the body involved in the punching action. Properly done there should be no strain. In fact, a strong stance is a key component to releasing ging.

Why learn this type of punching method instead of the punching methods of other styles like boxing or karate where the mechanics seem quicker to learn?

There's a method to the madness. From my experience, the extra time & effort kung fu demands is well worth it.

Are the bio-mechanics for kicking the same?

No, there would be some changes. That being said, stance training would increase kicking power & balance.

I read that one of the benefits of punching in such a way is that a person can produce a powerful punch in a short range without winding up or telegraphing the punch.

Yes, body connection combined with good technique makes this possible.

However, in order to punch does a person always have to be in a standing, linear posture position. Can they punch hunched over or on the ground?

It's 'easiest' to learn standing so I think maximum power would be found in those positions.

Wing Chun seems to utilized different body mechanics. They seem to punch straight on without the twisting motion.

I'm not a Wing Chun practitioner but I do know they turn their waist. It's a good solid Southern kung fu system.