That's scary - wing chun guy getting belted video

[BaktoBasics]

Hi. Have been doing wing chun for a year. Can anyone please explain this video? http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=82

Do any of you cross train in grappling?

Thanks guys.

 

[jonah2]

Pretty standard shoot mount and pound by the wrestler. The guy in black didn't seem to do much to arrest the motion of the shoot (on first glance - only watched it once)

No don't cross train in specific grappling style but have trained with people who have.

Jonah

 

[Kenpodoc]

It looked like the guy had never seen a wrestler. My suggestion is to not crawl into the cage unless you've trained for it. I also suspect that there are wing chung guys out there that could have handled the initial shoot.

Jeff

 

[swiftpete]

Referee did a crap job, the guy was tapping out for ages and still being belted in the face repeatedly. Tapping out should make the other guy stop.
I think this guy is just not a very good fighter plain and simple, I'm also sure other decent wing chunners could have handled this, he just seemed to accept being taken down and didn't do a lot once he was down there.
You've got to be able to defend yourself on the floor, my cousin has been teaching karate for years, although i've never seen him in action i know he thinks of himself as a good martial artist. He admitted to me recently he has no grappling skills and has never trained in groundwork which surprised me. When i asked how he'd defend himself if he was taken down he just said he won't be...I think that was probably what this guy thought too!

 

[arnisador]

It looked like the guy had never seen a wrestler.

That was my thought.

My suggestion is to not crawl into the cage unless you've trained for it.

Yes, what's embarrassing here is how poorly prepared he was for this fight.

 

[ed-swckf]

Easy win for the wrestler, more like a walk in the park

 

[Spook]

I don't think that video is very reflective of the style, more of the fighter. He looked like he wasn't even ready for a fight.

Yes, i cross train in grappling also. Well rounded is the way to go.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That was my thought.


Yes, what's embarrassing here is how poorly prepared he was for this fight.

Hmm UFC 5, is this not still the period when certain people and certain arts were chosen for their lack of exposure to wrestling?

I think another thread here discussed this previously.

 

[SilatFan]

I attempted to post earlier but my computer booted me off so here is a shorter version.



I don’t believe you should judge Wing Chun as a bad or ineffective art because one practitioner of one version of the art lost to a well rounded MMA athlete. I believe most TMA's have come to a similar end when they competed in a MMA event WITHOUT cross training. The answer - as has been stated here before - is to train hard in some other ranges. Especially in the ones that your system makes no real quality attempt to address.



In my limited experience most (not all) TMA's cover one range well. That’s why they are good at it. Wing Chun, for example, is great at the "trapping" range. But fighting is so fluid and dynamic (especially MMA) that expertise in one range is not enough to compete against a well rounded opponent in an MMA event. I would say that most high level TMA practitioners would lose to a "B" Class MMA fighter if they competed in a MMA event. The reason being is that almost all MMA fighters realize that they must train in more than one range. EX: Wrestling & Boxing, BJJ & Kick-Boxing, etc, etc, etc... Even Mark Coleman, who is supposed to just be a "wrestler", has trained in BJJ in Brazil. Why? Because he also understands the need to cross train if you’re going to enter events like that or have a reasonable (AND consistent) chance of beating well rounded, fit and intense opponents.



In my opinion Wing Chun is a good art (I studied it with a teacher for less than 1 year and am attempting to learn more just for the fun of it). But "Good Art" DOES NOT equal complete art for such a test as a high caliber MMA event.





As a side note I do find it interesting that WC - as a community - has not learned the importance of cross training. I believe there is an old video that’s been circulating on the web for years of William Cheung being taken down and punched repeatedly by a Turkish wrestler WITH some striking skill named Emin Boztepe (sp?). And as karma would have it Emin himself faced a similarly embarrassing encounter at a seminar with UFC/Pancrase champion Bas Rutten.



BackTOBASICS: With regards to your question to the group about cross training. Yes, I do cross train in grappling. I train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Freestyle Wrestling 3-4x per week. So maybe I’m biased as to how important ground work is to a striker.



Can you believe this was supposed to be my short post!!??



Peace.



PS

Now would someone please answer my question on Sifu Williams that’s on another thread!!

 

[Gemini]

I don't thnik that video reflects poorly on the art at all. There was no art to judge. He entered, he got dropped, he got pummeled. The end. Hell, I coulda done that. That was very early on in the UFC and he was an ill prepared figher who had no idea what to expect. There were many such "quick" matches back then. I remember a 6th dan TKD'r (don't remember his name though) that went out just as quickly. As a matter of fact, I can't remember one single TMA that didn't get his a$$ waxed at one time or another. I have no doubt that a prepared wing chun'r (as well as a prepared anyone else) would fair considerably better. And IMO yes, cross training is a must if you're going to compete there.


Regards,

 

[Roger Tibbets]

I think I found the video at http://www.ebmas.net/usa/videoclips.htm . It is the one titled 'Sifu Emin - William Cheung < Media Player 4.533 KB >' , right?

Quote: I believe there is an old video that’s been circulating on the web for years of William Cheung being taken down and punched repeatedly by a Turkish wrestler WITH some striking skill named Emin Boztepe (sp?). And as karma would have it Emin himself faced a similarly embarrassing encounter at a seminar with UFC/Pancrase champion Bas Rutten.

 

[Andrew Green]

Emin Bozetepe is a Wing CHun guy. http://www.ebmas.net/

No grappling skill on eithers part was displayed in that fight...

 

[Ubermint]

I attempted to post earlier but my computer booted me off so here is a shorter version.



I don&#8217;t believe you should judge Wing Chun as a bad or ineffective art because one practitioner of one version of the art lost to a well rounded MMA athlete. I believe most TMA's have come to a similar end when they competed in a MMA event WITHOUT cross training. The answer - as has been stated here before - is to train hard in some other ranges. Especially in the ones that your system makes no real quality attempt to address.

Absolutely. The problem is, in order to preserve their tiny fiefdoms, many WC (and other art) instructors try to prevent their students from crosstraining. They'll claim "yeah, we have the guard in WC, there's no need" by claiming it's some hidden anti-grappling application in Chum Kiu or whatever.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

First. Its one guy in one UFC fight and as the other guys say, he seems to have had rather a bad time.

Secondly. What do you train for? Because if you train for self defence I suggest that you disregard alot of UFC video footage, UFC is not self defence, although it can get the closest to it bar R.B.S.D. Taken the way that you train, a top UFC fighter could get his *** kicked in a street brawl whereas a traditional MA who trains purely for self defence could come out relatively unharmed, but then again circumstances would tell.

Thirdly. That particular site likes to rip it out of Wing Chun, I believe one member has the signature of "Wing Chun destroys rational thought" or something and are constantly putting down traditional MA. There are alot of MMA and UFC fans on that site and are constantly eager to show that their 'styles' are better than anything the traditional arts have to offer. They give a very negative outview which firstly to me made me think that alot of MMA were like that, very egotistic and always wanting to prove they are the best. Then I came to this site, and that all changed, because here they are nice blokes....and ladies.

I reckon this guy might do pretty well in a UFC ring, he's a grappler to. Not only that he's damn good. But then again maybe he would'nt since he trains self defence. Who knows huh?!
http://www.sifugrados.com/media.shtml

Just dont get put off by some video clips, how do you know thats really a WC guy, might just be a random guy dressed in a Wing Chun suit or tee shirt.
Regards

 

[andy]

Silatfan-- good post

 

[SilatFan]

To Roger Tibbets :

"It is the one titled 'Sifu Emin - William Cheung "

I believe that's the one.



To Andrew Green :

"No grappling skill on eithers part was displayed in that fight..."

That is my point. Its all relative. If you train a lot in grappling then you evaluate the level of grappling skill in that video as poor or nonexistent. If you DON'T cross train in any grappling then you might say "wow, he took that guy down pretty easy. He MUST be a great grappler." It’s all relative to your point of view which depends on your experiences.



To Corporal Hicks :

With regards to it depending on what your training for and your comments that "a top UFC fighter could get his *** kicked in a street brawl whereas a traditional MA who trains purely for self defence could come out relatively unharmed, but then again circumstances would tell."

As a TMA who also sees grappling as a TMA (it's been around in different versions for over a millennium, right?) I agree with your statement ...... sort of. I agree whole heartedly that it depends on the "circumstances" and "what your training for". But grappling like ALL arts has some tremendous street value. Also, I can't assume a MMA Athlete doesn't train for "self-defense" just because he competes in a cage. That would be similar to the poor assumptions some uninformed people make about TMA's.



To Andy:

Thanks!

 

[47MartialMan]

Interesting post....

Because if you train for self defence I suggest that you disregard alot of UFC video footage, UFC is not self defence, although it can get the closest to it bar R.B.S.D. Taken the way that you train, a top UFC fighter could get his *** kicked in a street brawl whereas a traditional MA who trains purely for self defence could come out relatively unharmed, but then again circumstances would tell.

UFC isnt so "Ultimate". However, given someone should have, could have, would have, is all speculation on what had happened. given that it is one bout in a environement that was suited for one competitor and not the other.

Just dont get put off by some video clips, how do you know thats really a WC guy, might just be a random guy dressed in a Wing Chun suit or tee shirt.
If it is, or isnt, the guy had a lot to learn from defeat.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

To Roger Tibbets :

"It is the one titled 'Sifu Emin - William Cheung "

I believe that's the one.



To Andrew Green :

"No grappling skill on eithers part was displayed in that fight..."

That is my point. Its all relative. If you train a lot in grappling then you evaluate the level of grappling skill in that video as poor or nonexistent. If you DON'T cross train in any grappling then you might say "wow, he took that guy down pretty easy. He MUST be a great grappler." It’s all relative to your point of view which depends on your experiences.



To Corporal Hicks :

With regards to it depending on what your training for and your comments that "a top UFC fighter could get his *** kicked in a street brawl whereas a traditional MA who trains purely for self defence could come out relatively unharmed, but then again circumstances would tell."

As a TMA who also sees grappling as a TMA (it's been around in different versions for over a millennium, right?) I agree with your statement ...... sort of. I agree whole heartedly that it depends on the "circumstances" and "what your training for". But grappling like ALL arts has some tremendous street value. Also, I can't assume a MMA Athlete doesn't train for "self-defense" just because he competes in a cage. That would be similar to the poor assumptions some uninformed people make about TMA's.



To Andy:

Thanks!

Yeah good point! Point Taken. I didnt mean to catergorise all MMA UFC, though it seems like I did. I just meant to point out that a TMA could have a better chance if he/she trained purely for self defence than an MMA althetle who trains purely for sport when it comes to a self defence situation, depending on circumstances of course.
I just didnt want this guy to get put off Wing Chun simply because he saw WC guy get beaten in a competition. Would I be correct in saying WC is not designed for competition, its designed for street fights, not saying WC cannot be done in competitions just stating what I thought its orginal use was.
Regards

 

[bcbernam777]

The age old story, it does not matter how well trained at Wing Chun (or any other Ma for that matter) if you are facing a fighting method that is unusual to you ie you have not truely encountered before, then you are going to have some trouble, which is why simply training Wing Chun to Wing chun will leave you deficient. You need to step out and taste other MA's. I train with 2 guys one who studies JKD and another who has training in wrestling, Choy lay Fut, and Kickboxing, it makes a refreshing change from training with WC players all the time.

 

[Flash25]

The guy just sucked. That was some of the worst Wing Chun I've ever seen. I don't even want to call it Wing Chun. First of all, the guy had no stance or footwork. Second, Beneteau just stood there with his chin out and his hands near his hips. Unless you've got Sugar Ray Leonard's hands you aren't going to keep yourself from getting hit by any competant striker. Cancio should have walked right up and attacked the guy. No squaring off, no sizing up the opponent, just hit him. Make him deal with your aggression. I don't know what lineage Cancio studies, but he obviously never learned to engage an opponent.