Technique v. movement

[jdinca]

Most MA discussion revolves around techniques used in a particular situation. What I've been noticing is that the term "technique" has a wide definition that depends on the system and the style.

Example: Our chinese kenpo system has a technique called "Driving Javelin". The attacker is throwing a right uppercut. At the end of the technique, you cross step towards the attacker while doing a snapping hammer fist to the temple followed by a rear kick. Driving Javelin is a technique, that last part is considered a move or movement and appears in many techniques.

Another: We consider doing an inward block from a side horse stance and then throwing a punch while turning into a hard bow stance to be a move, others would consider it a technique. A single block, strike, kick etc., is also considered a move, not a technique.

I ask for this reason. In an attack situation, I'm not going to be thinking about doing what I consider to be a "technique" but I would use a number of different moves that are within certain techniques. We look at techniques as a story with a set attack and a set response both by the attacker and the attackee. The purpose is to teach a student how to move and respond in a number of different ways and a number of different situations. The response from the attacker to these moves is a "most likely" scenario. We point this out to the student because, invariably, the "what if" question arises.

What terminology does your school/dojo, system/style use? Are you taught to use what I call a technique when attacked, is your training similar in that techniques teach you moves/movement that you would use in an attack, or is it something completely different? What I'm looking for from you answers is a more "apples to apples" understanding.

 

[Danny T]

Most MA discussion revolves around techniques used in a particular situation. What I've been noticing is that the term "technique" has a wide definition that depends on the system and the style.

Example: Our chinese kenpo system has a technique called "Driving Javelin". The attacker is throwing a right uppercut. At the end of the technique, you cross step towards the attacker while doing a snapping hammer fist to the temple followed by a rear kick. Driving Javelin is a technique, that last part is considered a move or movement and appears in many techniques.

Another: We consider doing an inward block from a side horse stance and then throwing a punch while turning into a hard bow stance to be a move, others would consider it a technique. A single block, strike, kick etc., is also considered a move, not a technique.

I ask for this reason. In an attack situation, I'm not going to be thinking about doing what I consider to be a "technique" but I would use a number of different moves that are within certain techniques. We look at techniques as a story with a set attack and a set response both by the attacker and the attackee. The purpose is to teach a student how to move and respond in a number of different ways and a number of different situations. The response from the attacker to these moves is a "most likely" scenario. We point this out to the student because, invariably, the "what if" question arises.

What terminology does your school/dojo, system/style use? Are you taught to use what I call a technique when attacked, is your training similar in that techniques teach you moves/movement that you would use in an attack, or is it something completely different? What I'm looking for from you answers is a more "apples to apples" understanding.

I think most of us use the term technique improperly. “Technique” is the working method or the manner of performance or performing.
In your example of “Driving Javelin”, which you call a technique, you don’t state exactly what is being done to create Driving Javelin. However with what little I know of Kenpo, it is the culmination of the movements combined in the sequence that is called Driving Javelin isn’t it? The manner in which you make the movements or the method you use to make the movements would be a technique. Most tend to call the movements or the way the movements are use technique. I throw a punch with my rt fist straight from my rt cheek using an elbow down vertical fist punch. That would be a movement and the way I moved my hand into and through the punch with a vertical fist would be a punching technique. If I were to do the same straight punch or movement but with a horizontal fist, that would be a different punching technique. The manner of making a vertical punch is different from a horizontal punch. If I were to do a vertical punch with the rt and then a horizontal with the left I would be using differing punch technique combinations. At the point of stereotyping kicks, let’s use a typical Japanese type roundhouse snapping kick vs a muay thai roundhouse kick. Both are roundhouse movement kicks however the manner they are performed is very different. In this example there are two different techniques of performing a roundhouse kick. Therefore technique is the manner of performing the movements. Movement is the act of changing place or position. In the kick example the act of changing the position of the leg through space to or into the opponent is movement.
Your example of the inward block would be a movement the manner in which that movement is made along with the manner the inward block is performed would be the block technique, the block itself would not be the technique.

Danny

 

[MJS]

Most MA discussion revolves around techniques used in a particular situation. What I've been noticing is that the term "technique" has a wide definition that depends on the system and the style.

Example: Our chinese kenpo system has a technique called "Driving Javelin". The attacker is throwing a right uppercut. At the end of the technique, you cross step towards the attacker while doing a snapping hammer fist to the temple followed by a rear kick. Driving Javelin is a technique, that last part is considered a move or movement and appears in many techniques.

Another: We consider doing an inward block from a side horse stance and then throwing a punch while turning into a hard bow stance to be a move, others would consider it a technique. A single block, strike, kick etc., is also considered a move, not a technique.

I ask for this reason. In an attack situation, I'm not going to be thinking about doing what I consider to be a "technique" but I would use a number of different moves that are within certain techniques. We look at techniques as a story with a set attack and a set response both by the attacker and the attackee. The purpose is to teach a student how to move and respond in a number of different ways and a number of different situations. The response from the attacker to these moves is a "most likely" scenario. We point this out to the student because, invariably, the "what if" question arises.

What terminology does your school/dojo, system/style use? Are you taught to use what I call a technique when attacked, is your training similar in that techniques teach you moves/movement that you would use in an attack, or is it something completely different? What I'm looking for from you answers is a more "apples to apples" understanding.

There are preset techniques against attacks. They are IMHO designed to give the student a foundation to build off of. Rather than always rely on those techniques, ideally we want the student to react to a given situation, using the tools that are contained in the preset movements.

Many times, during a class, I'd have the students form a circle, with one being in the middle, and the ones on the outside, as the attackers. I would often have them do an attack that the defender was not familiar with. They'd always have that deer in the headlights look on their face, wondering what to do. 9 times out of 10, they'd say to me that they were unsure of what to do. In turn, I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch, kick and move. The reply was yes! I would then say, well then do it!!

Ultimately, their defense does not have to be a named technique, but instead a natural response.

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

These are my opinions based on my where I am in my training. In our art we have techniques and katas, but they require movement. It takes the combination of both. Through training in the katas and techniques, a student begins to recognize the principles that are the foundations of the techniques and movement. Through this feeling, variations "henka" appear that employ the principles of the techniques and katas. This is realized when a person feels the principles being presented without thought of a technique and can apply it because they felt it was there, not because they were forcing a technique. This realization also changes the training so that it is not kata specific or based on a technique, but generally a set of principles and movement.

 

[jdinca]

I think most of us use the term technique improperly. “Technique” is the working method or the manner of performance or performing.
In your example of “Driving Javelin”, which you call a technique, you don’t state exactly what is being done to create Driving Javelin. However with what little I know of Kenpo, it is the culmination of the movements combined in the sequence that is called Driving Javelin isn’t it? The manner in which you make the movements or the method you use to make the movements would be a technique. Most tend to call the movements or the way the movements are use technique. I throw a punch with my rt fist straight from my rt cheek using an elbow down vertical fist punch. That would be a movement and the way I moved my hand into and through the punch with a vertical fist would be a punching technique. If I were to do the same straight punch or movement but with a horizontal fist, that would be a different punching technique. The manner of making a vertical punch is different from a horizontal punch. If I were to do a vertical punch with the rt and then a horizontal with the left I would be using differing punch technique combinations. At the point of stereotyping kicks, let’s use a typical Japanese type roundhouse snapping kick vs a muay thai roundhouse kick. Both are roundhouse movement kicks however the manner they are performed is very different. In this example there are two different techniques of performing a roundhouse kick. Therefore technique is the manner of performing the movements. Movement is the act of changing place or position. In the kick example the act of changing the position of the leg through space to or into the opponent is movement.
Your example of the inward block would be a movement the manner in which that movement is made along with the manner the inward block is performed would be the block technique, the block itself would not be the technique.

Danny

Excellent points. An inward block is a move. Fist chambering next to the ear with the arm straight off the shoulder, twisting you wrist as you block to provide torque is the technique.

mjs is also correct in that we have preset techniques. Based on your points, it seems that we all misuse the term.

Do all arts look at this the same way? I know the terminology is different (patterns, etc.) but I believe the concept is the same.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Most MA discussion revolves around techniques used in a particular situation. What I've been noticing is that the term "technique" has a wide definition that depends on the system and the style.

Example: Our chinese kenpo system has a technique called "Driving Javelin". The attacker is throwing a right uppercut. At the end of the technique, you cross step towards the attacker while doing a snapping hammer fist to the temple followed by a rear kick. Driving Javelin is a technique, that last part is considered a move or movement and appears in many techniques.

Another: We consider doing an inward block from a side horse stance and then throwing a punch while turning into a hard bow stance to be a move, others would consider it a technique. A single block, strike, kick etc., is also considered a move, not a technique.

I ask for this reason. In an attack situation, I'm not going to be thinking about doing what I consider to be a "technique" but I would use a number of different moves that are within certain techniques. We look at techniques as a story with a set attack and a set response both by the attacker and the attackee. The purpose is to teach a student how to move and respond in a number of different ways and a number of different situations. The response from the attacker to these moves is a "most likely" scenario. We point this out to the student because, invariably, the "what if" question arises.

What terminology does your school/dojo, system/style use? Are you taught to use what I call a technique when attacked, is your training similar in that techniques teach you moves/movement that you would use in an attack, or is it something completely different? What I'm looking for from you answers is a more "apples to apples" understanding.

The best way to solve this, I think, is to express that when you are in a "situation", you must react naturally. You must NEVER think about what technique you are going to use.
If you have to think about it then your reaction time is not fast enough, and you have not trained enough in a particular technique if you still have to think about how and when to use it.

 

[jdinca]

The best way to solve this, I think, is to express that when you are in a "situation", you must react naturally. You must NEVER think about what technique you are going to use.
If you have to think about it then your reaction time is not fast enough, and you have not trained enough in a particular technique if you still have to think about how and when to use it.

I probably didn't state myself well enough in the original post, but this was one of the things I was trying to get at. I completely agree with what you said. One of my questions was whether or not there are schools out there to do just that, teach a preset technique as something to use in a real situation.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I probably didn't state myself well enough in the original post, but this was one of the things I was trying to get at. I completely agree with what you said. One of my questions was whether or not there are schools out there to do just that, teach a preset technique as something to use in a real situation.

I'm sure there are some out there. We do preset techniques, but thats to be used more as a guideline, not gospel truth. As long as that is stressed its ok.

 

[jbclinic]

the techs are the tools you need to train your body/ muscles to react in a situation. i wouldn't try picking one rype fruit with one hand and not be full use both and get your meal.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Hmm....I see your 'driving the javelin' as defense with three techniques. The step in is one technique, the hammer fist is a second, the kick is a third. Each of these 'techniques' can be trained and drilled seperately nad can be combined in many ways. What you call "Drive The Javelin" I would *possibly" fall a form, not a Form, but just a self-defense form..or some other term

 

[FearlessFreep]

In answer to yor other question, yes we train things like that as prescribed defenses against certain attacks. Somewht for reinforced muscle memory but somewaht to learn how the body moves. That 'step in' or that 'hammer' are pieces that are used for a purpose or to cause a reaction, if you understand the purpose and the reaction, you can improvise and a) use those same pieces in other situations and b) use other motions against the same attack

 

[jdinca]

Hmm....I see your 'driving the javelin' as defense with three techniques. The step in is one technique, the hammer fist is a second, the kick is a third. Each of these 'techniques' can be trained and drilled seperately nad can be combined in many ways. What you call "Drive The Javelin" I would *possibly" fall a form, not a Form, but just a self-defense form..or some other term

Actually, that's just the last part of the movement. It starts with stepping forward into a "fighting stance" (side horse), doing a downward block and a heelhand to the face. Grabbing the head with the left hand and striking the temple with a right elbow come next, then the movement I previously described. This is what we call a self defense technique. I consider a form and a kata to be more synonomous than form and technique. Different strokes and all that.

Your second response also answers my question. What I describe above, although considered a technique, is not what I would think of doing in an attack situation. There's a chance I would use part of what's in there but I would think "oh, an uppercut, I'll do Driving Javelin". It seems that most schools are of the same mind on this.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[FearlessFreep]

. This is what we call a self defense technique

I would call each of those motions a 'technique', but that's just a matter of terminology. I see that you have one self-defense...something...made up of several 'techniques'

I consider a form and a kata to be more synonomous than form and technique.

Yeah, that's why I called it 'not a Form, but a form' simply as a prescribed serious of motions. Moslty because I don't know what I would really call it. I've also head it called "one step sparring' as well as "and know we're going to pratice self defense...now if someone does this you do this and then this and then this..you try" Maybe I have heard it called a 'self defense technique' but I'm trying to figure out a good way to distinguish 'technique' meaning 'round house kick' from 'technique' meaning 'block the punch, strike the tricep, shove the chin up as you sweep the leg'

All just words I guess...

 

[still learning]

Hello, In our system we use just this : Advance punch No. 1 up to 23 of them, combintions of blocks,punches,kicks,take-downs and so on.

Some of them is short with mulitple strikes and blocks. Just combinations of techniques. No fancy names. Just numbers. Even our chokes..we use choke hold number one up to twenty-one,different types of chokes to use.

Prearrange fighting techniques which involves movements. Is this what you are asking? What names we use to call our stuffs?

Certain moves we may use nick names as "monkey,monkey......strike to groin and face with hands switching to block and strike, in a like monkey moving sideways.

Some people/systems use names to give to a certain prearrange attack/defense sets. We just have a major name and than number them....Aloha

 

[still learning]

Hello, In our system we use just this : Advance punch No. 1 up to 23 of them, combintions of blocks,punches,kicks,take-downs and so on.

Some of them is short with mulitple strikes and blocks. Just combinations of techniques. No fancy names. Just numbers. Even our chokes..we use choke hold number one up to twenty-one,different types of chokes to use.

Prearrange fighting techniques which involves movements. Is this what you are asking? What names we use to call our stuffs?

Certain moves we may use nick names as "monkey,monkey......strike to groin and face with hands switching to block and strike, in a like monkey moving sideways.

Some people/systems use names to give to a certain prearrange attack/defense sets. We just have a major name and than number them....Aloha

 

[jdinca]

Some of them is short with mulitple strikes and blocks. Just combinations of techniques. No fancy names. Just numbers. Even our chokes..we use choke hold number one up to twenty-one,different types of chokes to use.

We have names and numbers. Interestingly enough, as you get higher in the system, name takes a backseat to number. I may not always remember the name, but I know the number. Unfortunately, my sifu wants both...