Technique Extensions

[Michael Billings]

"There is no such thing as overkill, it is overskill."

I mis-spoke myself in saying they taught no new principles, concepts, or theories. They introduce "en masse" things like angles of deviation, a lot more opportunities for quarter beat or broken rhythm timing, some interesting buckles, sweeps, lifting kicks, sweeping buckles or take downs, additional targets, simultaineous sweeps with stikes, more vertical knee strikes than you can shake a stick at, and lots of other "stuff", depending on the interest of the practitioner.

You find pieces of these elsewhere, but the extesions just give you more ideas when you come to the Formulation Phase. More grist for the mill as it were. If you don't want to do them, no problem. But there are some fun, creative, variations that I did not get taught with just the base techniques. It just would not have occurred to me had I not learned the extensions. If you want something short and effective go to Krav Maga, JKD, Shotokan, or any of the cross-training arts. If you want it effective with limitless possibilities, try some of the extensions. I did not really have lots of fun learning them .... but I did have fun teaching them, as it was a very different perspective than having to memorize yet another 128 technique extensions.

Challenge yourself, try them before you discard them - judge for yourself before you take someone else's word for it and discard them.

Just my 10 cents worth (inflation you know?)

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[rmcrobertson]

What we're missing here is a real sense of what teaching, and learning, the martial arts depends upon. That's why we see Bruce Lee's comments about doing away with system endlessly repeated: he didn't know how to teach, and when folks argue for throwing out big chunks of the Amercian kenpo system, they're arguing for throwing out big chunks of what makes learning possible.

Sorry, but I simply don't find the extensions repetitive. Sure, you have to bring a lot to understanding them--they won't magically bring knowledge all on their lonesome. But if you do bring something of your own to the party, they teach movement, and rhythym, that simply aren't available elsewhere in the system. They amplify, and extend, your understanding of previous techniques--they are an extension of vocabulary.

That's what's wrong with arguing that "I prefer short techniques." I prefer avoiding trouble in the first place--how's that for short technique? maybe the extensions teach something besides technique.

Sure, there'll be folks who can figure all this stuff out on their own.I'm not one of them; for me, the extensions made grafting and some of the other, "pick and choose," material in kenpo (including monitoring, a big piece of what extensions teach) available to us mortals. I am extremely reluctant to jack around with a system that I don't altogether understand--and here, the primary reason I'm reluctant is because I do not want students shortchanged.

My experience has been that those who know the extensions are less impoverished in movement. I have again and again seen the extensions radically alter thier ways of movement. I know for myself that the extensions had direct effects on, say, sparring.

Thanks; interesting discussion.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by satans.barber
If you ask me, most of the techniques are too long anyway,
Ian.

The Length of the EPAK techniques are the way they are for a reason. They teach continuity and combination motion. The Techniques are constantly misunderstood as a "must use" on the street in their entirety. They are there to instruct you as to "possibilities" not musts. Most advanced Black Belts understand this concept.

The material is there to teach us, yet we USE what we need in time of attack.

Originally posted by satans.barber
I like the really short ones.
Ian.

What each of us likes is not important. If you like short techniques then revert to shotokan or other systems that have a "one punch one kill" attitude. Kenpo was designed the way it is to combat this, so that if a strike or movement didn't hit its target or was blocked (by chance - I know we are always on but......) we would be skilled or trained to put together further actions to become victorious.

Originally posted by satans.barber
Very few of the longer ones would ever be done to completion.
Ian.

Maybe none of them would be................ so what..... they are just training drills.......... on the street you use what you need/want ... you do not have to perform a complete training drill on someone to subdue them. It is sure nice to have the skills rather than not.

I do agree with you as far a making the effort as short as possible yet still be effective, as one of my favorite moves is a single punch that drops the.... guy and it's over! But reality has shown that is not always what happens, but it can be a goal, in the meantime better to .........

"Be prepared to do actions and not have to use them, than to need actions to use and not be prepared."

Originally posted by satans.barber
If you extend them, it makes the problem even worse....!
Ian.

Now, what problem was that?.............

:asian:

SUB NOTE: Many of these techniques were much longer or actually taught in their entirety at one time. i.e., (I learned Dance of Death completely at orange belt) but as the reorganization of the curriculum came in....... many of the techniques were cut in half (thus creating extensions) for those techniques, so they would not be so long to teach to the lower students and later on re unite the complete technique...... with it's extension.

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Even if they just ONLY reiterated concepts that were already
taught, I'm all for "beating a dead horse" in this sense. Just
in case I missed something previously.

 

[Seig]

My students probably think I am warped and twisted...I have tried to explain Black Belt Dementia.....When they ask me about overkill, I try not to always fall back on the overskill line. I sometimes come up with something like "Kill him again, he's not dead enough!" The reason I do this, I feel there needs to be an element of humor to our training. I have several reasons for this. Such as, I don't want my students intimidated by the material and above all, as their skills grow, so too should their humanity. I too, like techniques that are short and to the point, but I also like the unending flow of motion of the longer techniques. To clarify this, when I am sparring, some of my more talented students are too fast for me to be certain of stoppping them with one shot. When I am working with them in a sparring session, I simply overwhelm them with anywhere from 3 to 8 different attacks in the different ranges and at different targets. I learned to do that by practicing the longer techniques.

 

[kenpo3631]

It is my understanding that during the "Original" structure of the system...32 Technique charts, the only extensions taught were the "extensions" for Orange Belt. This is better explained at these links:

32 Technique Explanation

Original Technique Charts

When you got to the extensions you had the "complete" system of "Motion Kenpo" (threw MK in there to clarify). Not until after the system was divided into the 24 Technique charts did Purple and Blue Belt get extension techniques.

Did Ed Parker develop these or did his students? Also if for years the "complete" system ended with the Orange Belt extensions, do the seniors that learned the "complete" system prior to the 24 technique division not know the complete system anymore? Afterall there were additions, did they have learn something that they didn't have already?

Just curious:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Not until after the system was divided into the 24 Technique charts did Purple and Blue Belt get extension techniques

Captured Leaves
Evading The Storm
Twirling Wings
Snapping Twig
Leaping Crane
Crushing Hammer
Circling Wing
Calming The Storm

Were originally part of the "Green-Orange" Extensions prior to the 24 technique chart Purple Belt extensions.:asian:

 

[fanged_seamus]

Okay, so as best as I can understand it, here's the deal:

1) In the distant past, the early belt techniques had more moves
2) They were reduced in length and became the "BASE" technique
3) The remainder of the technique (the "EXTENSION") was taught at a higher belt level
4) An extension differs from suffixing because the extension is part of the ORIGINAL technique, not some random add-on

So now the question is: why weren't the reduced techniques called "abbreviations?" :shrug:

Thanks for helping me to understand this better. Good thread!

Tad Finnegan

 

[Blindside]

Originally posted by Headkick: We don't do the extensions. The thought here is that at that level you should be able to add or improvise your own extensions, not someone elses. Learning more fixed motions isn't going to help too much. Other than it looks cool.

So does "Dance of Death" seem really silly to you, since there isn't a dance in the base technique?

Lamont

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jeffkyle



Are you stirring too....?

About time the Goldendragon came out of hibernation!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

My students probably think I am warped and twisted...I have tried to explain Black Belt Dementia.....When they ask me about overkill, I try not to always fall back on the overskill line. I sometimes come up with something like "Kill him again, he's not dead enough!" The reason I do this, I feel there needs to be an element of humor to our training. I have several reasons for this. Such as, I don't want my students intimidated by the material and above all, as their skills grow, so too should their humanity. I too, like techniques that are short and to the point, but I also like the unending flow of motion of the longer techniques. To clarify this, when I am sparring, some of my more talented students are too fast for me to be certain of stoppping them with one shot. When I am working with them in a sparring session, I simply overwhelm them with anywhere from 3 to 8 different attacks in the different ranges and at different targets. I learned to do that by practicing the longer techniques.

Yes, I like what you have to say, but...........I concurr..........you are warped/ twisted!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Now, what problem was that?.............

:asian:

SUB NOTE: Many of these techniques were much longer or actually taught in their entirety at one time. i.e., (I learned Dance of Death completely at orange belt) but as the reorganization of the curriculum came in....... many of the techniques were cut in half (thus creating extensions) for those techniques, so they would not be so long to teach to the lower students and later on re unite the complete technique...... with it's extension.

:asian:

Dang, Mr. Conatser, we both speak the same! How about that!

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kirk

Even if they just ONLY reiterated concepts that were already
taught, I'm all for "beating a dead horse" in this sense. Just
in case I missed something previously.

Kirk, you're not a "Hells Angel", so you really don't have to beat any more than necessary! Dead is Dead!:rofl:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Blindside
So does "Dance of Death" seem really silly to you, since there isn't a dance in the base technique? Lamont

LOL Well, I don't think the technique is silly but at the lower level of teaching the technique the name sure doesn't match the technique......... lol but you know what is really funny...... nobody ever asks about how the technique got it's name until much later.

So when you teach the complete technique they all say..... Ohhhhhhhhhhh so that's where the name came from...... Haaaaaa I always wondered about that!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:asian:

 

[satans.barber]

I like the really short ones.
Ian.

What each of us likes is not important. If you like short techniques then revert to shotokan or other systems that have a "one punch one kill" attitude. Kenpo was designed the way it is to combat this, so that if a strike or movement didn't hit its target or was blocked (by chance - I know we are always on but......) we would be skilled or trained to put together further actions to become victorious

All I meant was, that if most of the lengthy techniques are too long to be used in full, but we can use little flurries and combinations out of them, then the three of four move techniques are analagous to these; but can still be used in their entirity, that's why I like them.

That certainly doesn't mean I want to run off and join a one punch Shotokan club TYVM, and I don't think I really implied that either!

The shorter things are, the more easily remembered they are and the more digestible they are, which is why we write in paragraphs, have versus in songs etc.. I just think that when some of the techs are fully extended, it stops being as useful and turns into a performace, but that might just be a reflection on the way I learn as an individual.

...mumble mumble Shotokan my **** mumble mumble</jim royal>...

Ian.

 

[Blindside]

LOL Well, I don't think the technique is silly but at the lower level of teaching the technique the name sure doesn't match the technique......... lol but you know what is really funny...... nobody ever asks about how the technique got it's name until much later.

I'm a Tracy guy, so I got to learn the whole tech as a purple belt, I think it qualifies as the longest tech in the system. Where does the base tech end in AK, after the handsword to the groin?

Lamont

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Kirk, you're not a "Hells Angel", so you really don't have to beat any more than necessary! Dead is Dead!:rofl:

How do you know? Why, I was a bouncer at the Rolling Stones'
first farewell concert! Errr ... well I coulda been .. if I wasn't 6 at
the time

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Blindside



I'm a Tracy guy, so I got to learn the whole tech as a purple belt, I think it qualifies as the longest tech in the system. Where does the base tech end in AK, after the handsword to the groin?

Lamont

The longest techniques, including extension, are Destructive Twins and Obscure Sword.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Blindside
Where does the base tech end in AK, after the handsword to the groin?Lamont

Yes

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

The longest techniques, including extension, are Destructive Twins and Obscure Sword.

Hi Clyde,

Hmm, I should have indicated Tracy, not EPAK. Though my knowledge of the Tracy system is somewhat truncated compared to someone taught from the "official" (whatever that means in the Tracy world) curriculum.

Salute,

Lamont