Taking the back on the street

[trevorama]

Is there any advantage to taking the back on the street from a standup position?

In MMA this is a superior position because you can throw/pull your opponent to the ground. But in a street fight, where you don't necessarily want to go to the ground, are there any advantages to being in this position (i.e. standing up behind your opponent, head against your opponent's back, arms wrapped around your opponent's waist)?

If you find yourself in this position on the street, what's the best move?

 

[searcher]

I would say that it depends on the surface that you are on. If it is some nasty rough gravel I try to avoid it, but most of the time I prefer to not go to the ground on the street. It just seems like ther eare to many unknowns to get tied up with somebody on the ground. JMHO.

 

[trevorama]

I would say that it depends on the surface that you are on. If it is some nasty rough gravel I try to avoid it, but most of the time I prefer to not go to the ground on the street. It just seems like ther eare to many unknowns to get tied up with somebody on the ground. JMHO.

I agree with you Jon. That's exactly my point -- you don't want to take it to the ground. But what happens if you find yourself in this position behind your opponent (for whatever reason)? What do you do next? Do you just push him away or can you utilize this position to your advantage?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Is there any advantage to taking the back on the street from a standup position?

In MMA this is a superior position because you can throw/pull your opponent to the ground. But in a street fight, where you don't necessarily want to go to the ground, are there any advantages to being in this position (i.e. standing up behind your opponent, head against your opponent's back, arms wrapped around your opponent's waist)?

If you find yourself in this position on the street, what's the best move?

The same rules apply standing or on the ground here. Being behind someone is a good place to be. But the whole "rear bear hug" or "hooks in" part is something I wouldn't consider advisable if you don't want to go to the ground. Think about it. Your standing on your two feet so two weapons are used and your holding him with your two hands so the other two weapons are used. So what can you do from here that doesn't involve (A) going to the ground or (B) removing one or both of your hands? I advocate getting behind them and then immediately destroying the base with a hard kick or sweep to limit their mobility and possibly drop them. Then put the hands to work if necessary...

 

[John Brewer]

The same rules apply standing or on the ground here. Being behind someone is a good place to be. But the whole "rear bear hug" or "hooks in" part is something I wouldn't consider advisable if you don't want to go to the ground. Think about it. Your standing on your two feet so two weapons are used and your holding him with your two hands so the other two weapons are used. So what can you do from here that doesn't involve (A) going to the ground or (B) removing one or both of your hands? I advocate getting behind them and then immediately destroying the base with a hard kick or sweep to limit their mobility and possibly drop them. Then put the hands to work if necessary...

That's what I'm talking about! Why tie yourself up? Use the opponents position against him. I really love the sweeps. There are so many positions you can work them from. If you go to the ground what about his friends? Puts them in a great position to beat your head in.

 

[trevorama]

I advocate getting behind them and then immediately destroying the base with a hard kick or sweep to limit their mobility and possibly drop them. Then put the hands to work if necessary...

I really like this approach -- as far as destroying the base. But what about defending against a possible rear elbow or backfist from your opponent. You would need to tie up their arm(s) while delivering the leg kick/sweep wouldn't you?

What about this approach?... Say you've ducked under the person's right arm and have moved around to their back. With your right arm you underhook their right arm, and with your left arm you palm strike them on the left side of their face, then hook their nose or jaw and crank it to the left, while instep kicking behind their left knee.

Sound good? Anything better?

 

[zDom]

I don't honestly know what I would do (we can tell ourselves we do, but adrenaline and circumstances often elicit unexpected actions) -- but here is what I've trained to do in thousands of repetitions as part of our curriculum, so either is likely -- you fight like you train:

a) punch to the neck just below the edge of the skull

It would have to be a very serious situation to do this. It could cause longterm problems for the recipient.

b) stomp the back of the knee while pulling backward and down on the shoulder to throw them to their back, kneel on their chest and punch them in the philtrim or another target of opportunity on their head.

Better option as you could throw them hard or not so hard, depending on the situation. Can also opt not to punch them as followup.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I really like this approach -- as far as destroying the base. But what about defending against a possible rear elbow or backfist from your opponent. You would need to tie up their arm(s) while delivering the leg kick/sweep wouldn't you?

What about this approach?... Say you've ducked under the person's right arm and have moved around to their back. With your right arm you underhook their right arm, and with your left arm you palm strike them on the left side of their face, then hook their nose or jaw and crank it to the left, while instep kicking behind their left knee.

Sound good? Anything better?

Sounds good to me. My point is that the hands should either be in a guarding postion or they should be doing something ACTIVE, like what you described. Just hugging him for position is preparatory to something else (usually a takedown in this instance). When you're grappling you can slow things down a bit and afford to hug to improve postion. When standing things are more dynamic and them hands need to be working

 

[tradrockrat]

Holy schmoly!

This is exactly what I want to have happen. If I can get behind the guy I have effectivly cut him off from most of his weapons and defenses. If I find myself behind a guy I look for one of two things usually - a solid punch to the base of the head / neck or a snaping kick to the grion / anus. After that I would look for an entry to the head to take him down hard without going down with him. This is of course just a sample of what I might do - it would depend on the situation. I might just go with a cross over side kick to the lower back to knock him away from me - you never know... so many options

 

[Adept]

What about this approach?... Say you've ducked under the person's right arm and have moved around to their back. With your right arm you underhook their right arm, and with your left arm you palm strike them on the left side of their face, then hook their nose or jaw and crank it to the left, while instep kicking behind their left knee.

Sound good? Anything better?

I'd put my right arm under their chin, put my left elbow on their left shoulder, grab my left bicep with my right hand and put my left hand on the back of their head. Then squeeze/twist/snap/push as appropriate to choke them out and control their movement.

With regards to the initial post, where you find yourself with your head pressed against someones back and your arms around their waste, it depends on sizes. Against someone I can heave around, I'd attempt to pick them up and drop them on their side/head, followed by stomps and kicks to keep them down. Against someone larger, I might try and slip up their body for a choke or some other form of head control, or just push them forwards and follow up with strikes as they present themselves.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is simply a great place to be. If you are behind someone then their options are limited while you have quite a few different things that you can do. If I can get there then I definately would, after that well it would depend on what my opponent is doing and the situation.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[SFC JeffJ]

It's a great place to strike from as well as being a wonderful place for throws or standing grappling. Being behind someone gives you a plethora of targets. In the kenpo jitstu I study, we spend a lot of time working on how to get there and it's come in handy for me in the past.

 

[MJS]

Is there any advantage to taking the back on the street from a standup position?

In MMA this is a superior position because you can throw/pull your opponent to the ground. But in a street fight, where you don't necessarily want to go to the ground, are there any advantages to being in this position (i.e. standing up behind your opponent, head against your opponent's back, arms wrapped around your opponent's waist)?

If you find yourself in this position on the street, what's the best move?

Theres a ton of stuff you can do from this position while you're standing. Of course, keep in mind that they're not going to be standing still, so you have to keep active. A few options:

Knees and stomps to the legs and instep of the foot.

Throw the person to the ground and escape.

Use the environment around you. Slamming them into a wall, car, etc., and then following up with some strikes.

Work your way up to the neck and go for a choke.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I really like this approach -- as far as destroying the base. But what about defending against a possible rear elbow or backfist from your opponent. You would need to tie up their arm(s) while delivering the leg kick/sweep wouldn't you?

If the base is destroyed properly, they should be so far off balance (bent back) that any of the possible strikes they may throw would have little to no effect on you.

What about this approach?... Say you've ducked under the person's right arm and have moved around to their back. With your right arm you underhook their right arm, and with your left arm you palm strike them on the left side of their face, then hook their nose or jaw and crank it to the left, while instep kicking behind their left knee.

Sound good? Anything better?

Sure, that is a possibility! If you didn't want to duck under the punch, think along the lines of parrying the punch with your left, as your right arm shoots up around their neck. You now have them in a pretty good choke. This is along the same lines as applying from the guard position, only difference is that you're standing.

Mike

 

[Jimi]

I agree with everyones statements about being in position behind someone is a great place to work from. What I would absolutely not do , is go to the ground with him trying to apply a rear naked choke UFC style. LOL. If I can help it, I'd stay off the ground, especialy in an alley (Broken Bottles, Crack Pipes, Needles you name it- could make it costly for you) as well as in a bar (Broken Bottles, Glasses, Eating Utensils Ect...). Never wrestle/grapple in a junkyard. When you take the trash to the curb, you don't throw yourself out with it do you? (Right Tradrockrat?) LOL. I used to bounce in a few clubs in DC and have seen UGLY things happen to people on the ground. One club I worked in had it's entrance from a backalley between 19th & 20th and L & M St.s From the club floor to the alley surface, the ground was very hazardous. We all worked to get the assassins point of view on someone we needed to take outside. We even used to kinda frisk them to check for any possible weapons that may have slipped by us on the door while we escorted them to the alley. We were lucky that we had an off duty DC K-9 Cop moonlighting as security. PEACE

 

[trevorama]

Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions!

Some random thoughts/comments...

a) punch to the neck just below the edge of the skull

It would have to be a very serious situation to do this. It could cause longterm problems for the recipient.

b) stomp the back of the knee while pulling backward and down on the shoulder to throw them to their back, kneel on their chest and punch them in the philtrim or another target of opportunity on their head.

I like the concept of a punch to soft part at the base of the skull. In a live situation though, with an uncooperative opponent, it seems to me that that type of accuracy may be difficult to achieve. Maybe an elbow to that approximate area instead?

Oh and "Philtrim" is my new favourite word!

I'd put my right arm under their chin, put my left elbow on their left shoulder, grab my left bicep with my right hand and put my left hand on the back of their head. Then squeeze/twist/snap/push as appropriate to choke them out and control their movement.

With regards to the initial post, where you find yourself with your head pressed against someones back and your arms around their waste, it depends on sizes. Against someone I can heave around, I'd attempt to pick them up and drop them on their side/head, followed by stomps and kicks to keep them down.

The rear naked choke you describe is a great option. My only problem with it though is that it takes a while to work and leaves you exposed to attacks from behind.

I like the idea of being able to pick someone up from this position and throw them -- without going to the ground with them. But what are the chances that you wouldn't end up on the ground with them? Perhaps throwing them into a wall, car, etc. (like what MJS - Mike indicated) would be a better solution (if available), as it doesn't require the same amount of full body commitment on your part.

Mike I also like your idea of a standing arm triangle -- it's very effective -- especially when your left arm can rest on your opponent's eyes. But sometimes muscle memory kicks in and I've already scooted around back of my opponent, so I'm more interested in a decisive move from this position.

It's a great place to strike from as well as being a wonderful place for throws or standing grappling. Being behind someone gives you a plethora of targets. In the kenpo jitstu I study, we spend a lot of time working on how to get there and it's come in handy for me in the past.

Brian R. VanCise also said basically the same thing and was equally vague. I would love to hear more about the plethora of targets?

The difficulty I've found with training for targeting sensitive areas from the back, is that you have to give up the control position (i.e. tight grip around your opponent) to give yourself enough distance for the strikes to be effective. That's why destroying the base, rear-naked choke, shoulder pull, head crank, throw into wall, etc. seem to me to be the way to go. Otherwise, if you release your opponent to give yourself space, won't he immediately start spinning around to face you -- rendering your shots less effective?

 

[tradrockrat]

What about this approach?... Say you've ducked under the person's right arm and have moved around to their back. With your right arm you underhook their right arm, and with your left arm you palm strike them on the left side of their face, then hook their nose or jaw and crank it to the left, while instep kicking behind their left knee.

Sound good? Anything better?

We've got two really good entries from this position in the Python style.

On one you shoot your right arm under the opponents right arm and wrap it around the head / neck as you hip check (step right behind opponents leg) and toss the opponent to the ground. You go with him and use the triangular choke to control the opponent. A great disarm / takedown if you are with friends / coworkers - pretty stupid if you're by yourself.


In the other version you enter across the chin above the opponents right arm, wrap the head / chin area and hip check and throw while remaining standing. It snaps the neck and ends the fight.

EDIT: who you calling trash, Jimi?!?! LOL

 

[zDom]

In a live situation though, with an uncooperative opponent, it seems to me that that type of accuracy may be difficult to achieve. Maybe an elbow to that approximate area instead?

That's the benefit of repetitious training of specific techniques (TMA) and stand-up sparring: you develop accuracy with moving, uncooperative targets.

Why do you think an elbow is more accurate than a punch?

If it is a technique you personally are more comfortable with, it may be true for you, but generally speaking, a punch is just as accurate as an elbow.

Here's another one we do, but one I wouldn't break out unless it were truly, without a doubt a life-or-death situation:

Wrap arm around neck, similar to setting up rear naked choke, pull and lift while thrusting forward with hips to swing their feet off of the ground.

Then, step back and pull down and inward with the arm -- likely to break their neck.

Wish I had a video of this technique -- not sure I'm describing it well enough.

 

[trevorama]

Why do you think an elbow is more accurate than a punch?

If it is a technique you personally are more comfortable with, it may be true for you, but generally speaking, a punch is just as accurate as an elbow.

Scott, I actually believe that a punch is more accurate than an elbow. I just think that in a situation where you have an uncooperative opponent, in conjunction with stress, close range, etc., the less accurate elbow leaves more room for error, as it's a longer weapon. Know what I mean? Maybe you're right though -- I'll conduct some tests.

Wrap arm around neck, similar to setting up rear naked choke, pull and lift while thrusting forward with hips to swing their feet off of the ground.

Then, step back and pull down and inward with the arm -- likely to break their neck.

Wish I had a video of this technique -- not sure I'm describing it well enough.

This one sounds pretty effective (and similar to tradrockrat's nice move above). I think I understand your technique, but are you facing the same direction as your adversary, or do you turn your hips in and thrust in a backward direction? I'm going to have to try this one out (very carefully) with some training partners and then report back to you.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh boy I hate to be considered vague,

Where do we start. If I get your back on the street and want to strike I can strike at some of the following plethora of targets :
Back of Head
Back of Neck
Spine (all the way from the neck on down)
Kidneys (ever seen someone dropped from a kidney shot it happens like lightning)
Underneath Buttocks to Groin
Back of Thigh
Knees
Calf
Ankles etc. (remember most people probably have a tool, at least I do. Oh and I would definately break their balance and base before I started striking. (if I could that is)

Okay all of these places can be targeted emptyhanded but since I am a tool based person if I have someones back then I am going to be using a tool to amplify a strike. (like a stick, knife, force amplifier)

So those are just some of the areas that could be striked and that does not include if you decide to bend the guy over backwards, or strike from the side, etc. (lots of targets)

Then we are simply into maybe just taking the guy down by locking up a leg from the side or blowing out his knee from the back. What about a rear double leg takedown or a single leg takedown using forearm or shoulder. There are more ways to get them down from here. (that is for sure)

Never forget though the simply and genuinely nice way of a standing or prostrate rear naked choke. (that would be my preferred method, just putting them to sleep:rofl

I have used this technique more than once from behind to handcuff someone: Forearm across Throat and opponents arm behind their back to break their balance with my foot then going to the back of their knee to bring them backwards and down. Roll them on their belly and begin the handcuffing procedure. (very effective)

Bottom line if you can break their balance you can then do multple things like control, takedown, strike. Lots of options if you do it right!

The list from behind is a lot longer than this and your opponent is in a very vulnerable position because he/she cannot see you or what you are going to do.

Your big tools are ready to go and the opponent is vulnerable. So if you can be behind them good for you!

I hope this is a little less vague and a little more helpful.