Taipei report

[windwalker099]

An old article outlines a blend of theory and practice:

“They have also been ‘tested’ by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different countries with different forms of martial arts. One year, a member of the Gracie family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties, and an agreement on the rules was made. After three short rounds of freestyle pushing, the Gracie went home with dirt on his back.”

I’m curious

If true, does anyone know who this Gracie might have been?

Not about proving anything or claiming superiority, just a genuine interest in how ideas from different traditions intersect and quietly influence each other over time.
Rickson Gracie comes to mind. His approach to Invisible Jiu-Jitsu shares many elements with internal arts like Taiji, particularly the emphasis on structure, timing, sensitivity, and non-resistance.

From what I’ve read, Rickson's method is based on feeling the opponent rather than reacting in a mechanical or scripted way, an idea that resonates with principles found in Taiji and other internal practices.

"Parkinson's disease in 2018"

Like many with the Warrior spirit, he used his training to deal with his situation.

"winning without a fight"

sounds a lot like

Sunzi’s Art of War (孙子兵法):

“上兵伐谋，其次伐交，其次伐兵，其下攻城。”
"The highest excellence is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm somewhat skeptical of the story. Partly because I don't know of any Gracies who would have been visiting Taiwan at that time. But more so because that was an era when the Gracies were still very focused on developing their reputation by winning challenge bouts and most of them would have been very reluctant to enter into a challenge where they couldn't use ground fighting and would lose by ending up on their back.

It could have happened. Maybe it was one of the more open-minded and humble Gracies who just happened to be on vacation and wanted to try out something different. Or maybe it was just a random BJJ practitioner and the story got embellished to make them a member of the Gracie family.

These days you are more likely to see BJJ practitioners who are open to experiment with different styles and ways of testing themselves without getting too much ego involved.

Here's some practice footage with Marcelo Garcia (one of the all-time BJJ greats) doing take-down rounds with push-hands champion Chen Chi-Cheng:

Marcelo was dominant,. But I think Chen would do very well against a mediocre BJJ black belt like myself.

One of Marcelo's students, Josh Waitzken, is both a BJJ black belt and a tournament push hands champion.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not about proving anything or claiming superiority, just a genuine interest in how ideas from different traditions intersect and quietly influence each other over time.

This got me thinking (that means this will be a long post ) of the differences in the cultural development of TMA from China > Okinawa > Japan. CMA had centuries-long history of organized MA. It evolved from battlefield weapons use > empty hand combat > incorporating Tao and Buddhist philosophies into MA methodology with defined styles. (This progression was not as linear as listed, but generally close enough for the big picture.) Okinawa got exposed to CMA mostly during the last phase.

This exposure was a natural one as China and Okinawa had close long-time trade and cultural exchanges. Okinawa had no organized defined MA system, and as the need for non-military self-defense against pirates, thugs, assassins, etc. grew (1700 and 1800's), China was the logical source. Okinawa, not being too concerned with Buddhism and other structured belief systems and not having a full MA system, adopted the practical direct combat portions of CMA to incorporate with whatever empty hand combat methods they had. Karate was born.

Okinawa felt a need to be more accepted by their new masters, having been annexed in 1879 by Japan and not well looked upon or treated by them. This, and aided by Japan's prince being impressed by the Okinawan art, meant the time (early 1900's) was right to introduce karate to the mainland as a vehicle to acceptance into Japanese culture.

But the import of MA from Okinawa > Japan was much different than that of China > Okinawa. Japan already had a well-structured MA organization and hierarchy overseen by the government. It was this box that karate had to be fit into. They already had a twisting art and a wrestling art but were lacking a striking one to call their own to showcase. But, if they were to import one, it would be on their own terms.

Actual combat need was largely a thing of the past. Japan wanted strong young men imbued with Japanese spirit: Acceptance of authority, austere hardiness, nationalism, and emphasis on formal structure. They removed some elements from Okinawan karate while they added Japanese elements. Shotokan karate was born. TKD is, IMO, largely an extension of this into a Korean framework.

Lastly, due to Japan's influence, there was a backwash of Japan > Okinawa elements. Okinawan karate adopted some of JMA's ways starting with dogi and ranks, but also in physical execution, teaching methodology and sport competition. This affected some Okinawan dojo more than others, but in the end, JMA has influenced OMA to some degree.

Understanding this cultural backdrop on which TMA developed should help us accept that the personality of each geographic MA system evolved due to many factors, cultural and physical. One cannot ask, "Which is better, a bird or a fish." Each evolved in its own unique environment. Both are interesting orders of vertebrates, at least to an ornithologist or ichthyologist.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don’t know, i was just in Taipei last week snd no one told me about this…..

Ok, sorry, I’ll go now, i just couldn’t resist

 

[Same Trick]

It’s interesting how influences take kind of a full circle. In China with development of a central martial arts academy in Nanjing during late 1920’s with a similar aim as modern Budo was promoted in Japan, the Nanjing martial arts academy seems clearly have been inspired by the Japanese new view and use of and for their martial arts.

Around in Europe especially north Europe the idea of exercising as a “strengthening the nation” took form during the 1800’s, it was more of a gymnastics movement but incorporated into the armed forces especially so in British armed forces, and by iit the gymnastic movement reached Asia, influenced Indian yoga to take the shape we see today( perhaps also somewhat shaped the wushu’ish movement in China ?)….


And so to the Gracie family, that I read some of them practice yoga as to compliment to their jujutsu.

 

[windwalker099]

I'm somewhat skeptical of the story. Partly because I don't know of any Gracies who would have been visiting Taiwan at that time. But more so because that was an era when the Gracies were still very focused on developing their reputation by winning challenge bouts and most of them would have been very reluctant to enter into a challenge where they couldn't use ground fighting and would lose by ending up on their back.

It could have happened.

Agree, it could have happened.


I used to reference this example online to show that despite differing skill sets, context and level within a context really matter. While many people think push hands is similar to stand-up grappling, it can develop some unique skill sets, depending on the Taiji lineage and training emphasis.

At one time felt it could have been Rickson G, as part of his "invisible jiu jitsu" the timeline didn't match...
The commonality of his teaching and taiji theory, quite interesting.


Have seen the clip with Marcelo Garcia and the Chen practitioner, thought it was pretty good. The Chen guy held his own against a well-known, high-level BJJ practitioner, even though it was a different context for both. That said, the format may have been closer to BJJ than to push hands, which the Chen practitioner would have been more familiar with.

For those interested a good summary from the Inside Fighting channel:

In this unique martial arts showdown, BJJ legend Marcelo Garcia takes on an unexpected opponent — a practitioner of Chen Tai Chi. Often viewed as a soft or non-combative style, Tai Chi surprises many with its hidden combat potential. Watch as these two martial artists face off, bringing two very different worlds into one thrilling sparring session. The results may challenge what you think you know about Tai Chi as a fighting art.

I had tried to reach out to the author of the original Taipei Report to learn more, sadly, David Chen had already passed away.

“Taiji is not ‘The Way‘ but a means to help people realize their own way.“
“A master teaches us to be a student of Taiji, not his.“
— David C. Chen"

Understanding this cultural backdrop on which TMA developed should help us accept that the personality of each geographic MA system evolved due to many factors, cultural and physical. One cannot ask, "Which is better, a bird or a fish." Each evolved in its own unique environment. Both are interesting orders of vertebrates, at least to an ornithologist or ichthyologist.

Would you say BJJ is unique from the founding style it evolved from or named
as such solely based on location ?

I don’t know, i was just in Taipei last week snd no one told me about this…..
Ok, sorry, I’ll go now, i just couldn’t resist

The author was known for his deep passion and dedication:

"The passing of David C. Chen on December 25, 2005 is a tragic loss. David’s joyful spirit embodied the principles of Taiji. He tirelessly cultivated his Taijiquan and made many contributions to the Taijiquan community. His enthusiasm and intelligence in learning as well as his gentle personality inspired those around him. For David, the ultimate goal of Taiji practice was “for us to blend it into our everyday life” and “become a ‘better me’ not ‘better than you.’” His life was a beautiful example to us all.."

I believe the group he practiced with is still active in Peace Park, Taipei.
When I return to Taiwan, maybe I'll have a chance to meet some of them in the park.

Hsinchu is a bit far by train, but still reachable.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And so to the Gracie family, that I read some of them practice yoga as to compliment to their jujutsu.

At one time felt it could have been Rickson G, as part of his "invisible jiu jitsu" the timeline didn't match...

Rickson practices an offshoot of Yoga called Ginastica Natural. I know that it has influenced his breathing technique and it likely has made a difference in his approach to movement as well. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't explored the CMA internal arts. (Although, as you note, he has arrived at some of the same principles independently.)