Taiji and sarcopenia

[Kung Fu Wang]

During old age, if you don't want to lose muscle, weight work out is a must. Most Taiji people don't like to work on the weight. I just don't know how they can deal with the "sarcopenia" issue.

What's your opinion on this?

Sarcopenia is the age-related progressive loss of muscle mass and strength. The main symptom of the condition is muscle weakness. Sarcopenia is a type of muscle atrophy primarily caused by the natural aging process. Scientists believe being physically inactive and eating an unhealthy diet can contribute to the disease.

 

[Xue Sheng]

During old age, if you don't want to lose muscle, weight work out is a must. Most Taiji people don't like to work on the weight. I just don't know how they can deal with the "sarcopenia" issue.

What's your opinion on this?

Sarcopenia is the age-related progressive loss of muscle mass and strength. The main symptom of the condition is muscle weakness. Sarcopenia is a type of muscle atrophy primarily caused by the natural aging process. Scientists believe being physically inactive and eating an unhealthy diet can contribute to the disease.

My opinion here is that you seem to take any opportunity, no matter how unrelated, to attack and disparage Taijiquan. And all while you know so little about taijiquan due to your bias against it

My taijiquan shifu was a big proponent of body weight exercises. The Chen family stated that they felt weight lifting was a good thing, however isolation exercises were not, they said muscle group exercises were great for Taiji

I have been taijiquan for over 30 years, i worked out with weights extensively until i hit my 50s and arthritis, multiple eye surgeries and multiple knee surgeries hit me. That is when my weight training was far from consistent. I got back to it as a regular part of my routine in the last few years and was absolutely amazed at how much strength i had lost. Regular workout weight for a bench press was 150lbs, and i did not go higher because i had no spotter. I will not get into how much i lifted for other exercises. After my 50s, 50 pounds was heavy. Now dealing with a tear in my rotator cuff, i have had to modify again.

And i modified even more because of sarcopenia. Because what i was doing was only maintaining, not making better. Now i feel i am making gains

So, IMO and based on my experience, as weight lifting applies to Taiji, you are just plain wrong. Like many of your Taiji attack posts, due to your bias

Scientifically speaking, sarcopenia is a part of aging we ALL will experience, no matter what martial art one trains. Sorry to burst your Taiji biased bubble.

Are there Taiji people who don’t lift weights? Yup, but there are a lot of people in a lot of styles of martial arts that don’t lift weights

I posted in the other thread about sarcopenia as part of a discussion about age related changes for martial artists, i looked at it as a positive post. I didn’t post it to give you a springboard to make unfounded statements to attack Taiji and make it a negative. But you can post what you want, as long it is within the rules of MT.

But i maintain you know very little about taijiquan

 

[drewtoby]

I am about a year into yang Taiji so perhaps I can offer some input- the form is referred to by some as a calisthenic in and of itself. Going slow while maintaining balance is very much a full body workout.

Outside of that, we are encouraged to further train to build our core and kua (area around hip) muscles. Standing mediation is one way to get there, along with some more western exercises (squats, planks, etc.).

So, many of us do work on the weight, its just the muscles you don't really see. Combine that with body awareness and you get the benefit of fall prevention, which is discussed much in western research.

Why aren't the arm muscles as focused on? The art has a goal of full body movement, meaning that pushing with your full body, facilitated by the kua, is much stronger than pushing with only an arm. Sure, arm strength would help, but not as much as a stable structure with optimal movement.

Hope this helps!

 

[MetalBoar]

During old age, if you don't want to lose muscle, weight work out is a must. Most Taiji people don't like to work on the weight. I just don't know how they can deal with the "sarcopenia" issue.

What's your opinion on this?

Sarcopenia is the age-related progressive loss of muscle mass and strength. The main symptom of the condition is muscle weakness. Sarcopenia is a type of muscle atrophy primarily caused by the natural aging process. Scientists believe being physically inactive and eating an unhealthy diet can contribute to the disease.

I've had a number of people in several different arts tell me that weight lifting is bad and I think it's most often, though not always, been from people who practice TCMA's, including, but not exclusively, Tai Chi. It's often couched in arguments that center around the more esoteric elements in MA practice. Things like claims that putting on too much muscle will interfere with the proper flow of chi, or other aspects of internal energy. I've also heard claims (I have no way idea how valid) that much of this is a classist issue in which the wealthy members of society have historically looked down on those with lots of visible muscles as being associated with low class, manual labor. Again, I have no idea if that's true but I've heard it from several sources.

Greater lean body mass is strongly correlated with both a longer life span and a longer health span in pretty much every study that looks at it. That, combined with the fact that stronger skeletal muscles improve functional ability for essentially all physical activities, I feel confident that having greater strength is going to be beneficial for whatever MA you choose to learn, Tai Chi included. So, I don't take these negative claims about strength training very seriously. I think everyone can benefit from a quality resistance training program and that the older you are the more value you'll get from strength training.

Edit to add: Thinking about it a little more, the first time I came across the whole anti-weight lifting argument it was from an old school boxer. His claim was that lifting weights made you slow. My understanding is that this has been a long standing bias in the boxing community and that weight lifting has only relatively recently become accepted there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

His claim was that lifting weights made you slow.

The traditional weight training doesn't have the "slow speed" issue.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've had a number of people in several different arts tell me that weight lifting is bad

Some people may think I'm anti-Taiji. The purpose of this thread is to encourage people to work on weight during old age. If your lower leg muscle is less than 34 cm, you may have "sarcopenia" issue. Proper weight training and proper food are the best solution.

It's so funny that the older you are, the more important that wight training is for you. If you lose leg muscle, you will lose balance. The Qi flow will not solve your problem.

I just did my "sit to stand" test within 30 seconds. I can do 23 within 30 seconds for my 78 age. Consider 75-79 average is 11-17. My performance is "above average". I did find that Taiji breathing coordination (each move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale) can speed up my process. I do give credit for my Taiji training on this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Here we go again

Some people may think I'm anti-Taiji.

By some people I believe you are referring to mostly to me, And I don't think it, I know it. You titled this thread "Taiji and sarcopenia" Not martial arts and sarcopenia or sarcopenia and old age. You singled out taijiquan, therefore proving your bias

Then your very first paragraph targeted taijiquan as well, also showing bias

During old age, if you don't want to lose muscle, weight work out is a must. Most Taiji people don't like to work on the weight. I just don't know how they can deal with the "sarcopenia" issue.

And virtually every other post on MT where you have talked about taijiquan you have attacked it, and belittled it. So yes, you ARE anti-taiji. I tend to say bias against it, but you used anti-taiji so I will use that here

Would it be a post about over doing weight lifting or an attack on Shaujiiao if I started a thread that was titled "Shuaijiao and being muscle bound".... and then lead with Shuaijiao people lift weights to much and are too stiff......sounds to me like I'd be singling out one specific style......and for the record, I don't have anything aganst Shuaijiao, I find it rather impressive actually, but a post like that would be, IMO, and attack on it

The purpose of this thread is to encourage people to work on weight during old age. If your lower leg muscle is less than 34 cm, you may have "sarcopenia" issue. Proper weight training and proper food are the best solution.

Really!!! then why single out Taijiquan.

It's so funny that the older you are, the more important that wight training is for you. If you lose leg muscle, you will lose balance. The Qi flow will not solve your problem.

Well, you don't understand Qi flow either apparently....you have it a bit backwards there, as to how that would work, but whatever. Other than that, no one is disagreeing with that..... not even the Taijiquan people you look down upon

also throwing in Qi flow, which many taijiquan people talk about (and admittedly many misunderstand) is once again targeting taijiquan and showing your anti-taiji bias

I just did my "sit to stand" test within 30 seconds. I can do 23 within 30 seconds for my 78 age. Consider 75-79 average is 11-17. My performance is "above average". I did find that Taiji breathing coordination (each move is either 1 inhale or 1 exhale) can speed up my process. I do give credit for my Taiji training on this.

Good for you.... and wow... I think that might be the very first positive thing you have said about taijiquan on MT or any other web forum I have seen you on

Additionally; you don't understand taijiquan, yet you want us all to believe, here on MT and other sites you post on, that you are a master of it, you sir are not. Your continued example of "the push" shows you are not. First, as I have said many many MANY times before in response to your taijiquan attack posts; "There is much more to taijiquan than push" There is punching, kicking, qinna and Shuaijiao, like virtually every other CMA style.

But back to the push, if you understand taijiquan you would know that you would avoid a muscle on muscle push, it is a waste of energy, you redirect that or absorb, if possible, then redirect, basically take the other guys center and use it against him. A lot of martial arts do that. Are there times you would need to use muscle on muscle? Very likely, should be avoided if possible. But I will say, I never saw my taijiquan shifu do that, however he did take a lot of people off balance, and/or knock them to the floor, and/or apply qinna. Never saw Yang Jwing Ming do that muscle on muscle thing either, or Chen Zhenglei for that matter

Worked with a Yiquan guy who did not use strength either, but he could do the same. However he also showed you where you messed up and gave him a chance to strike you in the head during push hands, that knid of thing is in taijiquan too, but more prevalent in Xingyiquan

So yes you are anti-taiji....your own words in multiple posts prove it.... have a nice day

 

[windwalker099]

I feel confident that having greater strength is going to be beneficial for whatever MA you choose to learn, Tai Chi included. So, I don't take these negative claims about strength training very seriously. I think everyone can benefit from a quality resistance training program and that the older you are the more value you'll get from strength training.

No one would argue that strength is valuable — the real question is the type of strength, how much, expected outcome, and intended use.

In internal arts (depending on the lineage), the central idea is not to add more, but to understand how to use what you already have, and then learn how to harmonize it.


We often talk about the Six Harmonies, with emphasis on the Three Internal Harmonies.
Here, the outer framework supports and channels the inner —

Old Taiji Master teach the essence of Taiji in the park(English and Chinese subtitles Version

Old Taiji Master teach the essence of Taiji in the park(English and Chinese subtitles Version

the reverse of most external practices, where the outer is developed first and the inner plays a supporting role (making you faster, stronger, more robust).

Both use the same mechanisms just focus on different aspects reaching different outcomes .


Different approach, not better — just very different in training and application.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Well, this is why I'm teaching my mother how to deadlift. She's over 65, but I think if I can get her doing just a little weight bearing exercise she'll be healthier and happier for longer. She can deadlift 20kg for 5. She's a dancer, so she does plenty of cardio, but I'm giving her my old barbell and getting her just to deadlift a little each day

 

[windwalker099]

Well, this is why I'm teaching my mother how to deadlift. She's over 65, but I think if I can get her doing just a little weight bearing exercise she'll be healthier and happier for longer. She can deadlift 20kg for 5. She's a dancer, so she does plenty of cardio, but I'm giving her my old barbell and getting her just to deadlift a little each day

Do you or her feel she needs this...

Dance depending on type can be already be quite demanding on the body.
Many dancers at their later stages in life are recovering from the rigors they put their bodies through in training for dance.
Something like ballet is quite hard on the body....more so then many would think, until they try it...the same can be said with taiji..

For anyone trying it, and really meeting the requirements of the practice.
If one feels weight training might help them...go for it...see if it does...

Nothing from preventing one from doing so.....
It's your practice...

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Do you or her feel she needs this...

Dance depending on type can be already be quite demanding on the body.
Many dancers at their later stages in life are recovering from the rigors they put their bodies through in training for dance.
Something like ballet is quite hard on the body....more so then many would think, until they try it...the same can be said with taiji..

For anyone trying it, and really meeting the requirements of the practice.
If one feels weight training might help them...go for it...see if it does...

Nothing from preventing one from doing so.....
It's your practice...

I think.... it will help because although she's active, and she still dances, she doesn't do any weight bearing activity and never really has. I'm not suggesting she do too much of it, but a few deadlifts 2-3 times a week won't be too bad, and I think it will help stave off the problems she has with her weak back. Speaking from personal experience, I find a little weight training just helps everything else along.

 

[windwalker099]

I think.... it will help because although she's active, and she still dances, she doesn't do any weight bearing activity and never really has. I'm not suggesting she do too much of it, but a few deadlifts 2-3 times a week won't be too bad, and I think it will help stave off the problems she has with her weak back. Speaking from personal experience, I find a little weight training just helps everything else along.

Hope whatever you both do helps her. You didn’t mention what a “weak back” means.


Overuse in any activity will show up with age — especially if it’s heavily physical, like dancing. In Taiji, for example, knees often take the hit when people lose proper alignment, trying to force something they think they should be able to do without taking the time to develop it.


In my teacher’s group in Beijing, one basic exercise was a squat with the back plumb to the ground. This required the kua, hips, and femur attachments to be open and loose. Thinking my prior training was enough, I jumped straight in — the “just do it” approach — and worked through the pain.


“No pain, no gain,” right?
Wrong. I damaged my joints badly, I could barely walk down stairs. Took some time, to allow them to get back to normal. Now when I meet others thinking taiji is easy..I show them this basic and ask them to do it...most if not all can not...Even those who cultural do typically squat in daily activities...this is different..

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe that one example of weight training getting in the way of martial arts is simply in how one divides their limited training time between multiple activities. If one wishes to train martial arts and believes that physical strength is very important, one might spend so much time on strength training that they fail to develop their martial skills. It depends on priorities. The strength itself is not the problem, so much as is the limited time for training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I believe that one example of weight training getting in the way of martial arts is simply in how one divides their limited training time between multiple activities. If one wishes to train martial arts and believes that physical strength is very important, one might spend so much time on strength training that they fail to develop their martial skills. It depends on priorities. The strength itself is not the problem, so much as is the limited time for training.

I think it comes down to what your focus/goal is and what is supporting what

 

[MetalBoar]

I believe that one example of weight training getting in the way of martial arts is simply in how one divides their limited training time between multiple activities. If one wishes to train martial arts and believes that physical strength is very important, one might spend so much time on strength training that they fail to develop their martial skills. It depends on priorities. The strength itself is not the problem, so much as is the limited time for training.

I completely agree with what you're saying here and I think this is a legitimate concern. Many people spend what I consider to be an excessive amount of time in the gym lifting weights. Sometimes that's because they just like being in the gym and lifting, most of the time it's because they don't know there's any alternative.

I started weight lifting as a teenager, followed conventional lifting protocols for ~15 years, and it was time consuming. About 25 years ago I discovered the high intensity training method that I still use today. My current protocol requires so little time that most people call me a liar if I describe it to them, but I have a filing cabinet filled with documentation of my results and the results of my (now ex) clients that demonstrate that it's absolutely effective. The primary constraint it introduces is recovery time, because it is such an intense protocol. Ideally I want to time my workouts such that I don't have an MA class for a couple of days afterwards, or at least make sure that the class is focused on skill development rather than conditioning. Since my workouts are not only brief, but also infrequent, this usually isn't too hard to do.

 

[MetalBoar]

I think it comes down to what your focus/goal is and what is supporting what

I agree with this. I want strength training to support my goals, and sure one of those is simply being stronger, but that's largely because being stronger is in line with pretty much everything else I want - improved functional ability, injury resistance, better metabolic function, etc. etc. As I said just a moment ago, if spending time in the gym isn't a goal all by itself, strength training can take very little time to support everything I want from it.

​

 

[Flying Crane]

I completely agree with what you're saying here and I think this is a legitimate concern. Many people spend what I consider to be an excessive amount of time in the gym lifting weights. Sometimes that's because they just like being in the gym and lifting, most of the time it's because they don't know there's any alternative.

I started weight lifting as a teenager, followed conventional lifting protocols for ~15 years, and it was time consuming. About 25 years ago I discovered the high intensity training method that I still use today. My current protocol requires so little time that most people call me a liar if I describe it to them, but I have a filing cabinet filled with documentation of my results and the results of my (now ex) clients that demonstrate that it's absolutely effective. The primary constraint it introduces is recovery time, because it is such an intense protocol. Ideally I want to time my workouts such that I don't have an MA class for a couple of days afterwards, or at least make sure that the class is focused on skill development rather than conditioning. Since my workouts are not only brief, but also infrequent, this usually isn't too hard to do.

I’ve seen you post about this in the past and it is intriguing. I tend to get into a pattern that eventually gets disrupted due to various influences like travel, illness, other life obligations. Once I lose that momentum it is difficult to get back to the routine. Something that requires much less frequency would be appealing.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with this. I want strength training to support my goals, and sure one of those is simply being stronger, but that's largely because being stronger is in line with pretty much everything else I want - improved functional ability, injury resistance, better metabolic function, etc. etc. As I said just a moment ago, if spending time in the gym isn't a goal all by itself, strength training can take very little time to support everything I want from it.

​

Is it possible to take this approach with a very limited amount of equipment? Can you focus primarily on body-weight exercises like push-ups and pull-ups, maybe with a few kettlebells in the mix? Does it just become about doing reps until you are exhausted? How do you design a program to hit the complete body, with limited time?

 

[MetalBoar]

I’ve seen you post about this in the past and it is intriguing. I tend to get into a pattern that eventually gets disrupted due to various influences like travel, illness, other life obligations. Once I lose that momentum it is difficult to get back to the routine. Something that requires much less frequency would be appealing.

I hear that. One of the things that really appealed about this protocol when I started out training this way as a client was how easy I found it to stick with. I was running my own small tech consulting business at the time and it was very hard to be consistent with any kind of workout. It wasn't just how brief and infrequent the workouts could be, but also the fact that everything was clearly documented and also structured so that I knew just what I needed to do and how I was progressing. Just knowing exactly what I needed to do, and not trying to plan my workout session by session, made it really easy for me to just come back in to the gym when I had time and do the workout.

If you ever want to try it out I'd be happy to discuss it with you over direct message or even a video call if you'd find that helpful. There are also a couple of books that I might recommend, though none of them are exactly what I'm doing. If you were still in the Bay Area I could probably recommend some qualified instructors but I'm not sure about where you are now.

 

[MetalBoar]

Is it possible to take this approach with a very limited amount of equipment? Can you focus primarily on body-weight exercises like push-ups and pull-ups, maybe with a few kettlebells in the mix? Does it just become about doing reps until you are exhausted? How do you design a program to hit the complete body, with limited time?

The principles can be applied to body weight exercise effectively but there are limits to how effective they'll be for developing strength. I think bodyweight exercises are great, but if you're going for efficiency they're only useful until they no longer represent sufficient resistance. You should be able to do a lot with kettlebells, especially if you've got a good range of weights. It's easiest if you have a simple method to gradually increase the resistance on a near session by session basis, so to the degree you can do that with your kettlebell setup the better. Free weights with a bench, maybe a squat rack, and an olympic bar would probably be easier, but a good set of machines like you'd get in a gym would be better still. That being said, most people get a lot of benefit from just the basics of this kind of high intensity training even when applied to body weight exercises alone.