Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido Interrelated?

[Disco]

Question for the various segments of TKD. The self defense training that you receive, do you know where it stems from? I'll use our dojang for example. Our GrandMaster taught Hapkido based self defense. Joint locks, throws, takedowns etc. It seemed to be a natural extension for TKD. What background do you feel your SD comes from.

 

[Zepp]

Well, back before TKD was called TKD, most of the self-defense drills (i.e. three-step, etc.) likely came from Okinawan karate or Shotokan. But since then, instructors have changed these around to suit their own tastes and incorporated in whatever self-defense techniques they thought would be helpful, similar to what your Grandmaster has done.

In our training, our first introduction to self-defense comes from the set 3-step drills that our Grandmaster has been teaching since the 1950's, which his teacher probably learned in Okinawa. Eventually we start doing "creative" 3-step (or sometimes 1-steps) where its up to us to utilize what we've learned and come up with a response on the spot. A good portion of the learning there comes from classmates (who may use something they learned in another art) and from experimentation. That's about th time when we start incorporating joint locks, takedowns, limb destruction, and all that other yummy stuff.

 

[aricept]

My school uses a few pre-set defenses - against chokes, headlocks, etc. They're pretty much just stuff that my instructor made up. We also practice being attacked from a neutral standing position and just reacting.

I personally try to examin self defense possibilities from forms - that's why we're practicing them afterall, right?

 

[karatekid1975]

I asked my instructor one day if he mixed Judo or Hapkido into TKD, because we do all that stuff (joint locks, take-downs, throws, stand-up grappling, ect). He said before TKD became an official sport, it did have these things. Maybe not to the extent that his GM taught him, but it did.

We do have "self defenese classes." One day we might do joint locks (my fav ), or we might do typical TKD kicking stuff and forms, or we will do throws and take-downs the whole class.

Our step sparring is based on what we learn as far as this stuff goes. It's pre-arranged attacts that you have to defend against with one or more of the joint locks, throws, ect you learned for your rank.

For our black belt test, someone or several people will attact you randomly. You have to use what you learned as if it was real (stopping short of breaking a limb that is LOL). Like aricept said above. You don't know if you will be acted with a headlock, choke, ect. But you have to defend against it.

 

[Langdow]

Our advanced self defense is loosely based on Hapkido, but that has to do with our Master Instructor having a background in HKD before TKD.

Something that is stressed to us is the use of concepts and not learning a thousand different techniques for a thousand seperate situations. Self defense becomes more of an art then, less of a science and alot more free form.

 

[MountainSage]

kk'75, you made an important statement that needs more emphasis. TKD had joint locks, throw, etc before it became a sport. This begs the question, has the art been improved or destroyed by the sport emphasis? I would say TKD is slowly being destroyed as a MA. The need to go to other arts, both Korean and others, for self-defense seems very sad adn funny at the same time. When a person brags how great a MA TKD can be, the question must be asked if it TKD or infusion from another art by the Master or instructor that makes TKD impressive? I guess I need some input from the ITF people to make a fully informed statement.

Mountain Sage

 

[Marginal]

Well, the ITF certainly doesn't have to worry about losing focus due to developing new sparring tricks for the Olympics if that's what you mean. Self defense is in the USTF testing syllabus from white belt onwards, so it's not being ignored, but there's also the question of how effective something is if it's not being drilled frequently enough, and how natrual your reactions will flow when self defense is broken away from the core cirriculum and taught as an almost seperate area from the striking.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

When we're training in self-defense techniques (such as one-steps, etc), and not in sport TKD sparring which includes mostly kicks, we incorporate much of what would be considered Hapkido techniques. Our SBN includes things such as joint locks, take-downs, throws, and grappling to defend against attacks.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MountainSage
kk'75, you made an important statement that needs more emphasis. TKD had joint locks, throw, etc before it became a sport. This begs the question, has the art been improved or destroyed by the sport emphasis? I would say TKD is slowly being destroyed as a MA. The need to go to other arts, both Korean and others, for self-defense seems very sad adn funny at the same time.

We could discuss this one to almost no end. I think it's safe to say that most of us TKD practitioners on this board don't like what the WTF has done to our art (to put it politely).

As far as looking to other arts for self-defense, I think it's really just a matter of putting back in what was taken out. Hapkido and TKD are both Korean arts, and no martial art develops in a vacuum. The boundary between the two should be the different emphases on different aspects of training.

Besides, what we call Tae Kwon Do is fairly new in terms of martial arts. There's still room for growth. (Unless certain large influential organizations feel threatened by this.)

 

[MountainSage]

Zepp,
I do agree with your statement. I guess my gripe is that I'd like to see and hear at least one of those self-rightous sport TKD grand poopas admit they have messed up a good MA with their rush to beat the japanese to the Olympics.

Mountain Sage

 

[MartialArtist]

Hapkido and TKD are related IMHO in the sense that they are very compatible with each other.

And yes, I agree, TKD is being destroyed. Faster than any other art due to its popularity. MMA is also being destroyed by going commercial and so mainstream, with the thousands of kids wanting to be the next Ortiz and thousands of people wanting to make money off them.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
We could discuss this one to almost no end. I think it's safe to say that most of us TKD practitioners on this board don't like what the WTF has done to our art (to put it politely).

As far as looking to other arts for self-defense, I think it's really just a matter of putting back in what was taken out. Hapkido and TKD are both Korean arts, and no martial art develops in a vacuum. The boundary between the two should be the different emphases on different aspects of training.

Besides, what we call Tae Kwon Do is fairly new in terms of martial arts. There's still room for growth. (Unless certain large influential organizations feel threatened by this.)

TKD had a lot of Japanese influence as the general was in Japan for years, but it also had a lot of influence from the older hwarang of previous Koreans. A lot of people try to say oh, people tried to make it uniquely Korean by emphasizing super high jumping kicks but that's not true, it's just that THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE MADE IT POPULAR AND SYNONYMOUS WITH TKD - which eventually led to a huge drop.

 

[Zepp]

They'll never admit it. It's their livelihood.

And the only way you could hope to convince the masses would probably be to get yourself onto an Olympic TKD team, win the gold, and then say "Nah-nynah-nah-nyah-naaaaaah! I practice real Tae Kwon Do! So there! " Then you might hear them talk about change.

Or not.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
TKD had a lot of Japanese influence as the general was in Japan for years, but it also had a lot of influence from the older hwarang of previous Koreans. A lot of people try to say oh, people tried to make it uniquely Korean by emphasizing super high jumping kicks but that's not true, it's just that THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE MADE IT POPULAR AND SYNONYMOUS WITH TKD - which eventually led to a huge drop.

So I guess you don't buy in to the story that those kicks were used to unseat cavalry from their horses, eh?

Ya know, there's supposed to be this big 'ol ancient book somewhere about the battle tactics and fighting techniques of the Hwa Rang. I'd be willing to bet that if we found a copy of it somehwere (and if we could read ancient Korean) we would find a lot of common origins among most of the Korean arts.

 

[aricept]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
TKD had a lot of Japanese influence as the general was in Japan for years, but it also had a lot of influence from the older hwarang of previous Koreans. A lot of people try to say oh, people tried to make it uniquely Korean by emphasizing super high jumping kicks but that's not true, it's just that THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE MADE IT POPULAR AND SYNONYMOUS WITH TKD - which eventually led to a huge drop.

*cringes* Sorry, I tend to do that when I hear things like this.

TKD doesn't have a lot of Japanese influence because the General spent a lot of time in Japan - well, it does, but that's being far too simplistic. Nearly all of the major kwans were based on Japanese karate. Some of the kwan jangs eventually began to adopt aspects of taek kyon into their curriculum - high kicks, jump spinning kicks, etc - this was an effort to tie it to an older, Korean art.

The General did do a lot for TKD - his patterns were an attempt to distinguish the art from its Japanese roots. The "sine wave" movement the ITF eventually adopted distinguished it further. But the major styles of TKD - ITF, WTF, ATA, and those descended from the Chung Do Kwan (like mine, and Zepp's) - ALL still have some Japanese influence.

Modern Korean martial arts have little to no connection with the ancient hwarang - most of the material I've read on them says they studied mostly archery, with very little hand to hand combat. Most connections to them are, as you said, to make the art "more Korean" by making it intrinsically theirs.

From 1910 to 1945, Korea was basically raped by Japan. Nearly all native arts - both cultural and martial - were quashed. They literally did have to be practiced in secret. Most died, though. The closest we can likely get is modern taek kyon, ssirreum, and the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho forms Tang Soo Do GM Hwang Kee designed based off the empty handed forms in the Muye Dobo Tong Ji.

This isn't to say that TKD isn't Korean - by all means, it is. It is very different from its Japanese parent. The focus is different, the tools are slightly different. These changes came late into the game, though.

That was longer than I really meant it to be, and I apologize. I didn't mean to rant.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
I asked my instructor one day if he mixed Judo or Hapkido into TKD, because we do all that stuff (joint locks, take-downs, throws, stand-up grappling, ect). He said before TKD became an official sport, it did have these things. Maybe not to the extent that his GM taught him, but it did.

We do have "self defenese classes." One day we might do joint locks (my fav ), or we might do typical TKD kicking stuff and forms, or we will do throws and take-downs the whole class.

Our step sparring is based on what we learn as far as this stuff goes. It's pre-arranged attacts that you have to defend against with one or more of the joint locks, throws, ect you learned for your rank.

For our black belt test, someone or several people will attact you randomly. You have to use what you learned as if it was real (stopping short of breaking a limb that is LOL). Like aricept said above. You don't know if you will be acted with a headlock, choke, ect. But you have to defend against it.

You hit the mark...

Sport version is stripped down of everything. The Korean military incorporates military TKD, which is real TKD. Yudo and hapkido are all incorporated in some way. Actually, with the sport versions of these arts with the many McDojangs, I would suggest you cross-train with yudo/judo and hapkido. A lot of schools incorporate hapkido and TKD in the same school, teaching a cirriculum which is revolved around both or having seperate classes of each.

In Korea, a few of the biggest sports are TKD, yudo, wrestling, archery (for a cetain clique though), baseball, and a recent addition - international football aka soccer due to the success of the South Korean team. My parents grew up with the combative arts, and my ancestors before them.

 

[MartialArtist]

Most of TKD is Japanese/Okinawan with a Korean twist. There is also a lot of influence from the older Korean styles before the Japanese colonization.

Yes, TKD and Hapkido are related, kinda like every other combat art. However, TKD and hapkido are more related to others as hapkido and yudo fill in the gaps that modern SPORT TKD lacks. As I'll say it again, every COMBAT art covers all ranges of fighting. Depending on the art, something might be practiced more but nothing as important as striking or grappling is left out.

here is a good resource: Although I have some doubts on some of the things listed, it is a good source nonetheless. Remember the source covers Korean arts, so the part on how the Chinese influenced the Koreans or how the Japanese influenced them are not listed, but some information is given on how the Koreans influenced them.

http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm

 

[Zepp]

Overall a good source, but I have one major bone of contention with their information:

Won Kuk Lee, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, began teaching in Korea in 1944. Yes, that's right, during the Japanese occupation. What can I say, the man was good at making friends. And he couldn't possibly have been teaching in Korea in 1953, because he wasn't in Korea then. He left for Japan at the outbreak of the Korean war (after having been imprisoned by the previous government for not giving them control of his school). As far as I'm aware, he didn't return to Korea until after coming to the U.S. first sometime in the 60's.

It does make you wonder about the thoroughness of some of their other research.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
Overall a good source, but I have one major bone of contention with their information:

Won Kuk Lee, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, began teaching in Korea in 1944. Yes, that's right, during the Japanese occupation. What can I say, the man was good at making friends. And he couldn't possibly have been teaching in Korea in 1953, because he wasn't in Korea then. He left for Japan at the outbreak of the Korean war (after having been imprisoned by the previous government for not giving them control of his school). As far as I'm aware, he didn't return to Korea until after coming to the U.S. first sometime in the 60's.

It does make you wonder about the thoroughness of some of their other research.

Is the Seoul part talking about his birthplace, or where the HQ is?

Anyway, there are a lot of sources that use this chart, so whoever started... Who knows? But I've also seen it at hwarangdo.com

 

[Cthulhu]

There's a hapkido instructor I know of who's let a TKD instructor teach some classes because some of his hapkido students wanted to learn forms.

Cthulhu