Tactical Flashlight

[Psilent Knight]

BTW, the lumens I used in my experiments were 250 with one flashlight and 500 with another flashlight. I have another one that has as much as 1,100 lumens output in high mode but I did not experiment with that outside yet and I'm not sure if I really need to. After seeing what 500 lumens can do on strobe mode under lighted conditions I can already imagine what 1,000 lumens would do.

Again, to make my understanding clear I now believe the strobe function to be useful only to distract, disorient and disrupt but NOT to temporarily blind the assailant. I would rather use the high output mode at night to blind someone or take away their vision. And I still prefer to blind/take away vision over disorienting or distracting.

 

[CB Jones]

How does the strobe interfer with the OODA Loop as opposed to the continuous beam?

 

[Psilent Knight]

The strength of the continuous beam is not so much as it interfere as it BLINDS/TAKE'S AWAY VISION, particularly at night in low lit conditions. The strobe interferes with the OODA LOOP by making it difficult at worst and impossible at best for an assailant to get a good sense of the movements and distance of the person holding the strobe light even though he can still very briefly see him in between flashes (especially in situations outside of night time and low lit conditions). It's also irritating as H*** to be flashed in your face by it. Very annoying and can be a distraction. I never denied the distraction or disorientation factor of the strobe light. My arguments against it's use were based on using it at night and how the person with the light can also be negatively affected by the strobe light even if he's not as badly affected by it as his attacker.

But to me the (important) difference between blinding/taking away the vision and mere distraction is that if you use the continuous beam at night to take away your attacker's vision you can keep the light on and in his face and attack at will in which there is basically nothing your attacker can do to counteract it (unless he's a d'bag and has a mirror in his hand). But with the distraction you only have a split second or two to take advantage of whatever disruption of his OODA LOOP you are able to obtain. In other words, although I am reconsidering my initial position of the usefulness of the strobe mode I am still of the position that the strobe function has a couple of downsides that continuous beam does not have.

But I got the idea of revisiting and reassessing my position while watching parts 3 and 4 of Jared Wihongi's 4 part youtube videos on using the very tactical flashlight which started this thread.

If I do conclude that there is value in using the strobe feature of a tactical flashlight it would be for my own reasons based on my own research, training and experimentation and NOT simply because the tactical flashlights marketers say it is without them providing their own research and experiments to validate why they say so. At the risk of coming off as being condescending I think this separates me from most of the masses of tactical flashlight consumers.

 

[drop bear]

My view was different from your. At no point did I object to your view. If you see every differing view as an attack, that's on you. I actually agree with the basic premise you put forth (kubotan isn't a great weapon, and I'd rather have something else). I just see it as a weapon I can sometimes have when others aren't readily available.

I see anything that can add capability as useful. It's a continuum, not a binary option. The kubotan does, in fact, add capability (swiping strikes can do damage, hammerfists can do more damage, can make some locks "sink in" quicker, etc.). Whether a specific individual finds it useful or not probably depends upon their approach and whether the kubotan fits easily into it. It's not intrinsically a highly useful weapon (no additional range, added damage in many cases is moderate at best), so if it doesn't fit with an individual's approach, it's probably not useful to them. I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling that an endorsement, but I don't really object to that term, either.

A kubotan is something I've not had to use in a fight (if I define "fight" as something outside sparring). So are a knife, a handgun, an elbow strike, a single-leg takedown, and a baseball bat. Each of those can be useful in the right circumstances, as well.

OK. When you ever do shape up on a 100kg+ angry guy with nothing but a small stick. You may understand what I am trying to express here.

When people make statements like I find a kubotan useful for. I think use is important. (Same with elbows and single legs.)Otherwise people get the wrong impression about these tools and will wind up doing something silly like putting a krambit ring on a torch and thinking they can hubud some guy with it.

 

[drop bear]

I have blasted a lot of guys with my revenger. Sometimes just because they were irritating. The effect is really hit and miss.

possibly the coolest torch i have seen in a while.

 

[CB Jones]

The strobe interferes with the OODA LOOP by making it difficult at worst and impossible at best for an assailant to get a good sense of the movements and distance of the person holding the strobe light even though he can still very briefly see him in between flashes (especially in situations outside of night time and low lit conditions).

I just don't see it affecting the OODA Loop. I know alot of people with strobe functions on their lights....nobody uses them. Its a marketing tactic to get cops to spend money.

I don't see how a strobe light is more effective than a full beam flashlight in doing the following:

Make it harder for the attacker to see target. (Observe)
Making it harder to face and focus on the target (Orient)
Make the decision to attack harder (Decide)
Make it harder to Attack (Act)


Alot of our training and tactics are based on interupting the OODA Loop process and IMHO I just don't see a strobe light be any more effective than a full beam light.

Just my opinion take it for what its worth.

 

[Psilent Knight]

I just don't see it affecting the OODA Loop. I know alot of people with strobe functions on their lights....nobody uses them. Its a marketing tactic to get cops to spend money.

I don't see how a strobe light is more effective than a full beam flashlight in doing the following:

Make it harder for the attacker to see target. (Observe)
Making it harder to face and focus on the target (Orient)
Make the decision to attack harder (Decide)
Make it harder to Attack (Act)


Alot of our training and tactics are based on interupting the OODA Loop process and IMHO I just don't see a strobe light be any more effective than a full beam light.

Just my opinion take it for what its worth.

For starters I never said the strobe function is better or more effective than continuous beam. My position has always been that continuous beam is more effective than strobe and I favor continuous beam over strobe. I have made this position of mine very clear during my participation in this thread.

Concerning your disagreement with my present observations and conclusions I have no problem with that. It is up to each individual to do his or her own research and come to their own conclusions. If you and I have two different conclusions and viewpoints on this I have no problem with that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. When you ever do shape up on a 100kg+ angry guy with nothing but a small stick. You may understand what I am trying to express here.

When people make statements like I find a kubotan useful for. I think use is important. (Same with elbows and single legs.)Otherwise people get the wrong impression about these tools and will wind up doing something silly like putting a krambit ring on a torch and thinking they can hubud some guy with it.

Okay, so I'm facing a 100 kg guy. I have a choice between bare hands and kubotan. Me, I'd rather have the kubotan in my hand (though I might choose to drop it if it gets in my way, but that's easy to do).

 

[Psilent Knight]

As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly. It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight.

I agree with this observation (be it strobe or continuous beam).

I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them. These are brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other. One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor, the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides. That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.

THIS! I looked for this post mainly to highlight this portion of it (thanks for the info Blindside). Strobe mode (imho) isn't as effective at completely taking away a person's vision as continuous beam is but seems to still buy you that one or two seconds in higher lit conditions to attack due to the aggressor not being able to correctly guage distance between the two of you and/or him being distracted by the strobe. So I believe if a person is going to use the strobe mode (particularly under higher lit conditions) I think it would be best to use it as a surprise distraction and immediately attack. Sort of how you immediately preemptively strike a person after asking a distracting question.

@Juany118 can you give us an update on how you are fairing with the D-TAC Strobeforce so far? Do you have your own list of pros and cons yet from having it? Do you have more things that you like about it than you have that you dislike about it or vice versa?

 

[Juany118]

I agree with this observation (be it strobe or continuous beam).



THIS! I looked for this post mainly to highlight this portion of it (thanks for the info Blindside). Strobe mode (imho) isn't as effective at completely taking away a person's vision as continuous beam is but seems to still buy you that one or two seconds in higher lit conditions to attack due to the aggressor not being able to correctly guage distance between the two of you and/or him being distracted by the strobe. So I believe if a person is going to use the strobe mode (particularly under higher lit conditions) I think it would be best to use it as a surprise distraction and immediately attack. Sort of how you immediately preemptively strike a person after asking a distracting question.

@Juany118 can you give us an update on how you are fairing with the D-TAC Strobeforce so far? Do you have your own list of pros and cons yet from having it? Do you have more things that you like about it than you have that you dislike about it or vice versa?

So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.

Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch. Needed to adjust.
Light: Due to the design of the switch if I just throw it in my "go bag" without thinking the weight of other gear can turn it on and your clueless.

 

[Psilent Knight]

@Juany118 one other question I actually meant to ask in my earlier post above:

The D-TAC Strobeforce goes straight into strobe mode as soon as you turn it on. I want to ask if it's easy to go to high output mode from the strobe or do you you have to cycle through other modes in order to get to high output mode? In other words, are you able to go from strobe directly to high output mode or no?

 

[Psilent Knight]

So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.

Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch. Needed to adjust.

That's understandable.

Light: Due to the design of the switch if I just throw it in my "go bag" without thinking the weight of other gear can turn it on and your clueless.

You may be surprised to know that this wouldn't be a con for me simply because I don't ever carry a tactical flashlight in a bag at all. I always have it clipped on my pocket.

Also, in case you haven't guessed it yet I am asking these questions for a reason; meaning as a possible customer. Looking at pros and cons, weighing and considering, etc.

I'm guessing it will take much more time and a lot more use to be able to determine other things about the light such as switch remaining functional vs malfunctioning, integrity of the bulbs and circuitry, does it drain batteries quicker than other lights you've handled, whether or not the finger ring gets in the way of things, etc.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Juany118]

@Juany118 one other question I actually meant to ask in my earlier post above:

The D-TAC Strobeforce goes straight into strobe mode as soon as you turn it on. I want to ask if it's easy to go to high output mode from the strobe or do you you have to cycle through other modes in order to get to high output mode? In other words, are you able to go from strobe directly to high output mode or no?

It goes straight from strobe to high. To go from high back to strobe you have to cycle through medium and low.

If you do that cycle, once on strobe, it auto shuts down in 10 seconds. You can also shut down from any mode by holding the button for 3 seconds.

Oh another plus. The bezel is very aggressive and has done a "number" on numerous test medium. Some day I need to get a tripod for my phone so I can fill them. Also, unlike some other lights. The aggressive bezel alone can be removed and then you have a "normal" flashlight. I am waiting to see however how firm that "stays" or if I might have to use low strength thread locker at some point.

 

[Psilent Knight]

It goes straight from strobe to high. To go from high back to strobe you have to cycle through medium and low.

If you do that cycle, once on strobe, it auto shuts down in 10 seconds. You can also shut down from any mode by holding the button for 3 seconds.

Oh another plus. The bezel is very aggressive and has done a "number" on numerous test medium. Some day I need to get a tripod for my phone so I can fill them. Also, unlike some other lights. The aggressive bezel alone can be removed and then you have a "normal" flashlight. I am waiting to see however how firm that "stays" or if I might have to use low strength thread locker at some point.

Thanks for the feedback. Please do keep us updated on any new thoughts or observation you come up with while using this light.

So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.

Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch. Needed to adjust.

I think this can be a major con if you routinely handle different brands of tactical flashlights. If all except one of them has a tail switch I think this can be a problem. Perhaps the best way (or possibly the only way) to alleviate this problem is to just stick with the D-TAC Strobeforce so that your brain and hand will always be accustomed to it and not get confused. Who knows? That one second of confusion in a stressful situation can be a huge difference maker.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Here are three things that have come across my mind yesterday evening that I would like to share concerning the use of flashlights.

FIRST: @Juany118 you are in the unique position of being able to inform a lot of people about the utility of the D-TACT Strobeforce due to you having that flashlight as well as other having ones. Whenever it is convenient for you I am hoping you can share with us how much you like it compared to your other lights. Is the location of the operation switch a huge con or a minor one to you? Do you have lights that you like better/prefer over the Strobeforce? If so, why? Do you have lights that you favor the Strobeforce over? If so, why? Any other issues you haven't shared yet that you would like to share about it?

SECOND: While discussing the Karambit style finger ring on the flashlight in question the possibility of having your flashlight taken away from you by your attacker was brought up. Two things already mentioned as a counter to that concern were weapon/tool retention skills and the size of the flashlight inside of a clenched (and likely quickly moving) hand makes that possibility very, very problematic. I will like to add that IF your attacker manages to take your flashlight off of you I believe it is because you made some serious mistakes to allow such a thing to happen. Due to the size of the light and being able to retain it whenever you want to it should be impossible for your attacker to take it away from you as long as you are still standing, not badly injured and your brain is fully functional. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

LASTLY: I do believe that some people really do think of tactical flashlights (as some people do for other weapons and tools) are some sort of magic wand. I also believe that too many people think that just having one is good enough and that they will instinctively know what to do with it and how to best employ it in a tactical or SD situation without ever training to do so with it. Most importantly, I very much disagree with the idea that it should be immediately used as a palm stick or bludgeoning tool by conscious strategical decision. Instead of first on the "pyramid of uses" of the light it should be last in my opinion (I'm not saying it should never be used this way at all mind you).

Here is how I think the tactical flashlight should be used in descending order from the most preferable to the least preferable. By preferable I mean by conscious strategical decision. Why consciously choose to do #5 if you can safely do one of the first four?

1). To clear a dark area that you must navigate. You clear it BEFORE continuing your navigation through that area.

2). As a deterrence. If you are being threatened or feel uncomfortable with the movements or behavior of someone you shine the light in their eyes and take away their vision to keep them immobilized while you make good on your escape.

3). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision as you execute a quick "stun and run". You do this if you are past the 2nd stage listed above. With this method you flash 'em, then bash 'em and then run.

4). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision while you attack. You do this if you are past the 3rd stage listed above and find yourself having to engage in CQC to ensure your own or a loved one's safety. If doing this my preference is the light in my non dominant hand and another weapon in my dominant hand.

5). As an impact tool. This can be done with the light on or off. I will only do this if I do not have a weapon in my dominant hand and the flashlight is the only tool that I have at the moment.

Did I miss anything on this pyramid that others wish to add?

I realize the circumstances will dictate how the light is employed. A person may suddenly find himself in the 4th or 5th stage without having the luxury of being to execute the first 3 or 4 stages. Sometimes it can't be helped and we cannot always dictate at what stage of a situation we will be in.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Coming back to this thread I want look at the use of a 'tactical' flashlight by a female. Here are two short video clips by two different people with two different approaches. I personally have some issues with each one but I have more issues with the first one (not to mention it borders on the comical).

Any of you guys have any opinions, issues or general feedback concerning these two approaches?

 

[CB Jones]

Coming back to this thread I want look at the use of a 'tactical' flashlight by a female. Here are two short video clips by two different people with two different approaches. I personally have some issues with each one but I have more issues with the first one (not to mention it borders on the comical).

Any of you guys have any opinions, issues or general feedback concerning these two approaches?

I liked the 1st video much better. The Blonde was pretty attractive.......I know....I'm a pig and will now put myself in timeout.

 

[Psilent Knight]

I liked the 1st video much better. The Blonde was pretty attractive.......I know....I'm a pig and will now put myself in timeout.

LOL. That's why she's in the video, to be used as eye candy and get some guys to earn themselves a time out.

But the biggest problem I have with that first video is the advice they offer women for getting away after a man has grabbed them. If a female gets grabbed by a male she's going to have to do a helluva lot more than turn on a flashlight and scream "Back off". And I don't know how much good it would do to attack his grabbing hand with the flashlight's bezel.

I generally like the advice that James Williams offers in the 2nd video. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the idea of trying to use lateral movement to flank an assailant while you shine the light in his face. Not only do I think it will not be as text book as he makes it out to be, but why even bother wasting time with such wasted movement's? If you've succeeded in taking away his night vision then take advantage of that opportunity to directly drop him and get out of there. He can't see what you're about to do anyway so the (extra) lateral movement in an effort to flank him is a waste of precious seconds to me.

But overall I would recommend the 2nd video to women who are concerned with personal protection.

 

[drop bear]

LOL. That's why she's in the video, to be used as eye candy and get some guys to earn themselves a time out.

But the biggest problem I have with that first video is the advice they offer women for getting away after a man has grabbed them. If a female gets grabbed by a male she's going to have to do a helluva lot more than turn on a flashlight and scream "Back off". And I don't know how much good it would do to attack his grabbing hand with the flashlight's bezel.

I generally like the advice that James Williams offers in the 2nd video. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the idea of trying to use lateral movement to flank an assailant while you shine the light in his face. Not only do I think it will not be as text book as he makes it out to be, but why even bother wasting time with such wasted movement's? If you've succeeded in taking away his night vision then take advantage of that opportunity to directly drop him and get out of there. He can't see what you're about to do anyway so the (extra) lateral movement in an effort to flank him is a waste of precious seconds to me.

But overall I would recommend the 2nd video to women who are concerned with personal protection.

Any response will go to the last spot you were seen. So the lateral movement makes sense.

 

[Psilent Knight]

Any response will go to the last spot you were seen. So the lateral movement makes sense.

I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the idea but here are two possible problem's with the flanking idea:

1) I don't think the assailant is going to stand perfectly still in one spot. This is why I said it will not be as textbook as the video makes it out to be. You have to flank him while somehow leaving your arm in the right position to keep the light directly in his face. Just try doing this yourself with a training partner who is allowed to react naturally and you'll see that it's easier said than done.

2) It's an extra step or movement that you're better off skipping. If I have my light shining in a bad guy's eyes and have succeeded in taking away his vision I would rather take maximum advantage of that moment and drop him with one move (say a right cross to his jaw or a palm stick to his clavicle or sternum) instead of taking unnecessary chances with two moves (step to his left first while somehow keeping my adrenaline filled arm where it needs to be to keep the light perfectly in his eyes and then drop him).

Have a look at the second video again and look at the sequence where the female is at her car giving the bad guy the business. She has the light in her left hand directed toward his face and going to work on him with the weapon in her right hand. Which would have a better chance of saving her in a fast paced, adrenaline filled attack; that which she's doing already in the video or trying to flank him in between shots with the weapon in her right hand?

I'll reiterate that I most certainly appreciate the concept of flanking someone while shining a bright light in his eyes but I think that concept takes second seat to simply attacking him while you can as soon as the opportunity presents itself. James Williams himself does teach such a concept as evidenced in the video below.

Remember, he can't see what movements you're making behind that light anyway so deliberately looking to flank him is unnecessary imo. If you just so happen to naturally flank him during the altercation then that's great. By all means take advantage of that moment if you do. But I would rather focus on surviving and escaping instead of fixing my mind on any one tactic, be it flanking or otherwise.