CB Jones
Senior Master
Pocket clip.
I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.
Tactical Flashlight
- Thread starter Juany118
- Start date
Pocket clip.
I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.
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Juany118
Senior Master
With this tool not really. It is a possibility with a karambit, say as you slash it gets stuck in a bone, however with this you either punch or do an icepick like "stab."
CB Jones
Senior Master
This. Without a blade the attacker is free to go right at it and try to pry it out of your hands. And with your finger in the ring, if the attacker gets control of it you are going to be in a world of pain.
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Juany118
Senior Master
I am wondering if that would really be an issue though. So little of the flashlight sticks out that I can't see someone realistically getting that kind of leverage. /Shrug. If it's possible I will likely find out, because I carry it at work now. I will let y'all know either way.
CB Jones
Senior Master
What I mean by finger breaker is. If the attacker can get control of it he only has to twist and your finger is locked into it and now can be twisted and broken.
Which is true of any weapon that is not empty hands. Once a person introduces a weapon into a fight, they do several things at once.
First, they create a liability which must now be defended. That is, a screwdriver, knife, flashlight, gun, etc, can be used by the assailant as well as by the person defending themselves against aggression. The aggressor will try to take it away and use it against the defender. The defender now must not only defend themselves, but the weapon.
Second, hand-held weapons in general (not always and in all ways, but quite often) disable the hand hand holding the weapon in terms of using it to do other things. You have taken what is for most of us the free use of two hands, and tied one of them behind your back, figuratively speaking.
Third, when a weapon is introduced, the chances that it will be employed for its intended purpose go up exponentially. If needed to defend against deadly force, of course, this is understandable. If, however, it is introduced as a magic wand, which so many people think it is, it has increased the chances that it will be used, and perhaps not in a way that serves the interests of the person defending themselves. It is a bell that is hard to unring. Draw a pistol, and you are now in a gunfight - like it or not.
I'm not against weapons. I think most people don't know enough about how to use them correctly or effectively to carry them, and I include myself in that category. I don't train with knives, unlike some true experts we have here on MT (I mean that with great respect, not being snarky). I am more likely to have a knife taken from me and used to cut or stab me than to use it effectively or well, or even legally. The same is true of people who carry guns. Booger-eatin' morons, for the most part, based on my experiences. Some of them I've run into at the range are so dangerous that when they appear, I leave because their lack of understanding of even basic safety terrifies me.
Yes, I know there are experts who train often and well and are in fact experts with their weapons. I'm not one of them and chances are quite high most of the rest of us are not either. There are better ways to kill yourself than by whipping out a tactical something-or-other and having it taken away and jammed up your jaxie. My 2 cents.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Like a trigger guard on a gun. Which can get caught during a disarm.
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Juany118
Senior Master
As @drop bear said, it's no different than a gun, however there are 2 issues not addressed...
1. The tip of flash light protruding is very short so getting such control is problematic.
2. The first part of learning to use weapons is weapon retention. If not any weapon is a danger to the user, especially in close combat.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Sure, but the trigger guard provides a certain protection from accidental discharge.....a protection that is worth the risk. The flashlight does not have the risk of accidental discharge so there is no need for a guard.
Sure grabbing just for the flashlight, but an attacker can grab the arm and then physically pry it from your grasp in which they now not only have control of your arm but pain compliance as well.
Sure, but you also need the ability to disengage from the weapon if need be and have the ability to transition to another weapon or create distance/seek cover and/or concealment.
Psilent Knight
Blue Belt
But the trade off is an equaliser at worst and a combative advantage at best. Not to mention minimizing the risk of injury to the hand holding the weapon (due to not punching a skull or a really hard head). I think there's reward that comes with the risk.
There is a potential of a reward, which is why carrying a weapon is not necessarily a bad thing. However, my caveats still apply. The fight changes when you're armed. It may not change in ways that favor you. And if you can't be arsed to train with that weapon (I mean the generic you, not you personally), then your weapon is a distinct liability.
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Juany118
Senior Master
You are missing his point here. I occasionally teach firearm disarms, both executing and preventing (as an active LEO). He is referring that your finger can be broken by the trigger guard, the issue isn't the accidental discharge. I teach this because while some officer's do instinctively shoot to prevent this scenario, some instinctively "freeze" because of their personality type.
It actually isn't difficult, under those circumstances, to remove your finger from the trigger guard, or in this case the ring feature. It's simply a matter of training so that you don't forget to remove the finger. What works for the pistol works for the ring feature. If they are managing to gain control of the arm you remove the finger. In the case of the light I would actually let them have it if they gained such control. Even in "civilian mode" I carry many more tools so I am not that concerned if they get my light.
read above. part of your training with any weapon except, imo, a firearm, should be a preparedness and willingness to disengage and transition to another tool.
Maybe its my lifestyle. I will be almost 50 this year and since 19 I have been either a soldier or a LEO. So I think of such things via my personal prism. I will admit that there are tools that suit such professionals better than civilians and sometimes I forget that fact. Maybe this is such a case?
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Juany118
Senior Master
I think people also forget the purpose of a tactical light in this context. Again maybe just me projecting my personal experience.
If it is in a lighted condition I am pulling another of my other tools. I would only pull the light in an environment where the actual brightness of the light is an advantage. That is just how my mind works though. I always have a tactical knife (which has a window break and ring feature) so when closed I have an impact tool on me when I leave the house and only take the light if I expect to be out after dark or I am going to work. /Shrug
If it is in a lighted condition I am pulling another of my other tools. I would only pull the light in an environment where the actual brightness of the light is an advantage. That is just how my mind works though. I always have a tactical knife (which has a window break and ring feature) so when closed I have an impact tool on me when I leave the house and only take the light if I expect to be out after dark or I am going to work. /Shrug
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Do you think somebody out there is paying a lot of money for a tactical torch tactical knife tactical tactics course.
And gets shine a light in their face and then punch them in the head?
Psilent Knight
Blue Belt
No argument from me. I don't necessarily disagree with the general view you've presented. I will like to say that I agree with @Juany118 on two things he's said in this discussion; 1) Weapon retention should be the FIRST thing a person learns when learning to use a weapon and 2) Specifically with the tactical flashlight under discussion (and you could say other tac-lights of the same length as the one we are discussing), your assailant possibly getting hold of the light while your fist is clutched around it is much, much easier said than done. I would say the same applies to most palm/pocket sticks.
Psilent Knight
Blue Belt
Juany118 I see a couple of problems with this. The first issue is that this tactical flashlight is not a karambit. In fact it looks to me like the ONLY THING that this flashlight has in common with a karambit is the finger ring. But the fact remains that it is not a karambit and I just don't know if it's wise to treat it as though it is a karambit when it's not. And the finger ring makes a little more sense to me for the karambit than it does for the flashlight.
The second issue is how to operate the pressure switch. From what I gathered from the video you turn the torch off/on the same as any standard tactical torch which means it would be best to hold the light in the hammerfist grip in order to effortlessly turn the light off/on under pressure. Something that is either difficult or impossible to do if holding it in the "icepick" grip.
EDIT: A third issue that I see with the stabbing/icepick grip is that physiologically I believe it is more practical to use a hammerfist grip and hammer strikes with a tactical flashlight (as well as a palm stick/pocket stick) when under pressure. An icepick or stabbing grip only makes sense to me if the tool/weapon being used is primarily designed to stab.
