Sword Vs. Gun

Cryozombie

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Charles Mahan said:
If you are looking for less than fatal intervention, try the police. They're real good at that sort of thing,

LOL

Thats funny. You obviously don't live in MY neigborhood.

I do a lot more stick work than bladework, and I agree with what you say there... but, IN my home, Im less worried about Incapacitating someone... if they are in my home, I have to assume they are there to harm me or someone else in the house, and I will be much more likely to meet that with escalated force.

I wouldnt use mace indoors. Been down that road. Here's a hint... If you are in a bedroom, and you mace someone, you WILL get a 2 for 1 special. Guess who #2 is?

Yep.

Like I said, been down that road.
 

arnisador

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dasgregorian said:
If you want control, a sword gives you that.

Because you can hit with the flat of the blade? I don't buy it. You can hit someone with a gun, too.

A sword is made for cutting people.
 
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arnisador said:
Because you can hit with the flat of the blade? I don't buy it. You can hit someone with a gun, too.

A sword is made for cutting people.

Is a man strikes me with his flat, I will be offended and give him my edge. Surely no-one is advocating using the flat to end the fight as opposed to the edge here? If you see me hit anyone flat, it's because I screwed up and if you see someone srike me with ANY part of their weapon, I likewise have screwed up. :flame:
 

Bigshadow

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In my opinion, this gun versus sword debate is like debating the best technique for when the knife is already buried in you chest. :asian:
 

Tgace

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What about the caveman's flint axe vs. the sword? I think people just switched over to swords because theyre so shiny. In reality the flint axe would kick ***!!!

:)
 

arnisador

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Bigshadow said:
WHO IS the SUPERIOR person? The weapon really doesn't matter.

Well, the ascendancy of the firearm is based on the fact that an inferior (in training) person can be very effective with it, No?
 

Jonathan Randall

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arnisador said:
Well, the ascendancy of the firearm is based on the fact that an inferior (in training) person can be very effective with it, No?

Yes, that's where the mass production began. Kings and Queens realized they could field HUGE armies of seasonal conscripts more inexpensively and effectively than they could highly trained knights.

I think a firearm can make anybody effective, of course, but in the hands of an expert... :mp5:
 

arnisador

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Seasonal conscripts is a good point. Many people don't realize that large standing armies such as we now have were not always the norm.
 

Bigshadow

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arnisador said:
Well, the ascendancy of the firearm is based on the fact that an inferior (in training) person can be very effective with it, No?

It seems to be just a matter of relativity.
 

Tgace

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Seemed to be relative across the globe.....
 
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Shane Smith

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With the advent of the firearm, for the first time ,a peasant clothed in rags could stand against a highly skilled swordsman armed only with a loaded iron tube and a match and have a pretty good chance of prevailing..and beyond arms reach! That was truly a pivotal change in the state of affairs. The crossbow had a similar yet lesser effect.
 
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Technopunk said:
I gotta say, first off, If I didnt believe in the validity of the firearm, I wouldnt own one (plus), and train with it.

However...

What we need to train ourselves on isnt "which is better" but which is more appropriate given the circumstances... I mean, I could do AWESOME home defense with a claymore mine, but given the collateral damage, its not more effective than a gun... and given the right set of circumstances, a gun is not more effective than a sword. THAT is what we should be concerned with knowing and training... not "which is better"

And to the argument of "MA takes too long and firearms level the playing field" kind of thing...

Who's in a better position, a Thug with a gun who has maybe popped off a few rounds, or a Martial Artist who has spent years in his art AND has a gun?

IMO, all that MA training has to count for somthing, if only how to move off the line of attack (after all, a gun is only dangerous at what its end is pointing at) fighting while moving, and maintaining calm in a conflict situation...

I think even against a guy who goes to the range weekly and pumps a couple hundred rounds thru his weapon of choice, the MA training would help. Just like a Guy whos range training includes "threat" shooting etc is gonna benefit more than a guy who hangs a target and shoots.
These are all very good points.
 

Bigshadow

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arnisador said:
Relative to what?
I was really referring to this...

arnisador said:
Well, the ascendancy of the firearm is based on the fact that an inferior (in training) person can be very effective with it, No?
I think the term very effective is very relative. Even with a gun an untrained person can just as easily hurt themselves as anyone else. In the broader scheme of things it really is person vs person. Firearms are just a weapon of distance, keeping the person weilding the firearm at a relatively safer distance.

However for the purpose of this thread, I think that confrontations or situations are always person vs person, not weapon vs weapon. The weapon is just a tool. We don't fight tools, we use them. My thinking in this is there are many decision leading up to being shot at or cut that boils the conflict down to person vs. person. So my question is are we talking about what to do AFTER the knife is buried into the chest, or what decisions we make so that the knife cannot be used?

It may be something in my coffee, but I really still see conflict as person vs person, not weapon vs weapon or tool vs tool.

A perfect real world example is Iraq. We have the best technology and weapons in the world and yet, the insurgents are still there and are still killing people. This isn't about weapons, it about imposing one's will on another and human spirit, it is person vs person.


Again, just my opinions. :)
 

Tgace

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All true..but on the other hand, a gun does give even an untrained, infirm, unexperienced person a FAR better chance of surviving an attack against a larger, trained opponent than any other weapon. Its not a magic talisman by any stretch, but in terms of the most BANG for the buck (get it? ;) ), its the best "equalizer" on tool to tool comparison that there is.
 

Bigshadow

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Tgace said:
All true..but on the other hand, a gun does give even an untrained, infirm, unexperienced person a FAR better chance of surviving an attack against a larger, trained opponent than any other weapon. Its not a magic talisman by any stretch, but in terms of the most BANG for the buck (get it? ;) ), its the best "equalizer" on tool to tool comparison that there is.
Oh certainly, I don't disagree with that. But I guess I was thinking of, why would I try to use a katana against a gun (as in a duel)? One can use the katana against gun weilding person. But... it would require out-thinking them or out-smarting them. So in my opinion yes a katana can be quite effective against someone who is using a gun but not so easily in the sense of a "Duel".
 

Tgace

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Exactly...I suppose that a person with a fork can defeat a gunman under the right circumstances. Thats why IMO these X vs. Y debates are unrealistic. Its a combination of tool, person and circumstances.

However I believe that we can say that some tools are definitely superior to others solely on a functional level, otherwise we would still be using rocks and sticks against each other.
 

arnisador

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A gun may well be just a tool, but the question here is: Is it the right tool for the job? In a dueling sense, most likely yes. In some other sense? It'd depend...but most often the gun holder will win.
 

Bigshadow

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arnisador said:
A gun may well be just a tool, but the question here is: Is it the right tool for the job? In a dueling sense, most likely yes. In some other sense? It'd depend...but most often the gun holder will win.

Well, I was thinking of "survival" instead of duels (sports). Anyway maybe this will help.

OK if the intent is tool vs tool. Maybe this video will help.

http://mail.cu.ac.kr/~cave10/NihotoVSpistol.wmv

This is about as close as your gonna get to tool vs tool.
 

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Bigshadow said:
Well, I was thinking of "survival" instead of duels (sports). Anyway maybe this will help.

OK if the intent is tool vs tool. Maybe this video will help.

http://mail.cu.ac.kr/~cave10/NihotoVSpistol.wmv

This is about as close as your gonna get to tool vs tool.

As swordsman, would we have the luck or skill to beat the bullet... only to get whacked on both shoulders by the fragments?? :)

You've probably also seen the automatic versus the Nihoto
Katana VS .50 Caliber Machine Gun.wmv (8mb)

[beaten but not without a fight - that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!]
 
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