Sword hitting sword

[Poor Uke]

Hello all my first post in this area of the forum

My question is about sword on sword contact.

Its not practically avoidable is it?

Please excuse any noobness on my behalf my background with swords is limited and my weapons experience is all from Arnis were we use sticks in place of blades and contact is common.

So do you train to avoid contact or is this a taken that contact for self preservation is more important than the damage your sword may encounter?

Thanks for your time

 

[MBuzzy]

Kind of a broad question, but there are certainly techniques designed to strike before the opponet has drawn, before they make contact, or after they have made a move (i.e. avoid the strike and counter while they are extended). But there are also movements designed to block the sword with direct sword on sword contact. Depending on style, some have blocks that engage the blade, some engage the back of the sword, some engage the side. so while it is avoidable, I don't believe that most styles specifically train to AVOID sword to sword contact. Some other styles may have different views though.

 

[Kajowaraku]

Evasive of pre-emptive cutting seems to be the dominant modus operandi in Japanese sword arts, but that doesn't mean there are no techniques that involve contact, sometimes even quite strong (like blocking the opponent's blade with your own blade between the his and your body, leaving no room for striking until after unclinching, at which point it's basicly about who's the fastest.

All in all japanese sword arts are really different from the fencing style of swordplay at the basis of escrima. Typically, in duals you'd get long staredowns with one or two moves resulting in one or both guys dropping to the ground, and the one left standing doing chiburi. Very different feeling compared to escrima (of course that doesn't mean one is better than the other. In fact i personally like escrima (or arnis) since it is alot of fun to train.When going in the flow of an exercise, it can get almost entrancing at times.)

 

[Sukerkin]

There are indeed some techniques in the JSA which allow for contact between swords.

However, most often when that contact would be edge-to-edge, it is implicit within the technique that the prospect of damage from such contact is enough for an attacker to soften and shorten the blow.

A point to note is that with a composite blade such as the katana, with seperate sections of different hardnesses of steel, if blade-to-blade contact is going to occur as a definite block, then you want to go edge-to-edge. Even if such might result in a nick (or worse) in your blade it is preferable to what happens when the cutting edge of a katana strikes the softer side or back of another katana.

 

[pgsmith]

A point to note is that with a composite blade such as the katana, with seperate sections of different hardnesses of steel, if blade-to-blade contact is going to occur as a definite block, then you want to go edge-to-edge. Even if such might result in a nick (or worse) in your blade it is preferable to what happens when the cutting edge of a katana strikes the softer side or back of another katana.

Gotta disagree with you here.
Different schools have different ideas on this issue. The school I currently practice with advocates using the shinogi only, never the ha.

... like blocking the opponent's blade with your own blade between the his and your body, leaving no room for striking until after unclinching, at which point it's basicly about who's the fastest.

Tsuba zeriai is basically a kendo only phenomenon. There are way too many ways to die in that situation for it to be used by the koryu schools. Because of the specific kendo rules, it is something that you see quite often there.

 

[Sukerkin]

I don't think we really disagree here, PG, that's why I carefully chose the word 'block' rather than 'deflection' or 'redirection'.

Most of the paired forms in Muso Jikiden use edge-to-edge for blocks and those kata within the single forms always use the edge when putting in place defences, even when that is what the Westerners would call a 'hanging block' e.g. Kissaki Gaeshi or Ukenegashi.

The rationale behind it, as I hinted at before, is that your opponent is considered to be at least a good a swordsman as you are and as capable of withholding or redirecting a strike when it is clear that such contact is going to occur.

As you say, other ryu have different approaches - I didn't mean to imply any absolutes in what I said, I was just seeking not to confuse the issue for someone with no knowledge of the JSA.

 

[Ken Morgan]

There are indeed some techniques in the JSA which allow for contact between swords.

However, most often when that contact would be edge-to-edge, it is implicit within the technique that the prospect of damage from such contact is enough for an attacker to soften and shorten the blow.

A point to note is that with a composite blade such as the katana, with seperate sections of different hardnesses of steel, if blade-to-blade contact is going to occur as a definite block, then you want to go edge-to-edge. Even if such might result in a nick (or worse) in your blade it is preferable to what happens when the cutting edge of a katana strikes the softer side or back of another katana.

Agreed

 

[Cryozombie]

I have often heard that one never wants to make contact with swords, that it's a hollywood myth, but in reality, doing Kukishinden Ryu I have seen several techniques that "smack" the opponents blade with the flat of the sword, or use it as a "shield" as it were to block/deflect a cut.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

As said, it really depends on the school in question. Kukishin Ryu uses a deflecting action with the side of the blade, as does Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu Bikenjutsu includes a very Tsuba Zerai-style action (in the kata Kiri Sage and Kiri Sage Sayu Gyaku), as well as defelcting actions (Sayu Gyaku, Kin Shi), Togakure Ryu Biken involves deflecting the opponents sword with the side of the sword, as well as having the sword above your head and angled down to allow a downward cut to "slide" off and away.

For examples of sword on sword contact (in training at least), here is a clip of Otake Sensei from the Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu (

), and a clip of Kashima Shinryu, who are renowned for a high level of contact in their swordwork

. In fact, Kashima Shinryu is said to have such an emphasis on contact that they use a straight bokken to better handle the stress of constant impact, and were one of the first classical schools to use a fukuro shinai (leather covered shinai).

But you can see that even in these "high impact" schools, there is a higher use of evasive cutting, rather than risk damaging their swords.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Are we talking in “real life”, or in practice?
In real life you block as your school taught you, or you do whatever you have to to stop/deflect an attack and respond in kind. If you school teaches you to block with the edge, as mine does, use the edge, if the sword gets a nick so what? if you take it on the back or the side and they take a nick, so what? The task is to keep yourself safe and be able to attack.
In a dojo in practice, use a bokken and play around with it till you get it “right”. Why would you damage a perfectly good sword just for practice? Its practice.

 

[Poor Uke]

Thankyou all for the replies.

Ken M : it was a general question that came about when somebody told me I should avoid contact at all costs and evade and attack. (This wasnt an instructor of mine). It just seemed impractical to me.

 

[Kajowaraku]

While I actually tend to agree, that leaves little room for training contact with actualy swords. After all, how often do you find yourself in a situation where you are attacked in a real life or death situation and find yourself to be carrying a shinken? I know packing a gun isn't as uncommon in the states as it is here, but I don't see people walking around with a sword strapped to their belt. I guess the real life aspect of JSA is all but lost for us, and that's probably not such a bad thing from a humanitarian point of view (less lethal violence being preferable over more). On top of that, most countries have laws against parading public area's with a live sword.

Still, contact with a sword is a very different feeling from contact with a bokken. At the end of the day a bokken is still a stick that looks a bit like sword, and while it is an immensely useful tool for training (as is fukoro shinai), that ought to be used in 90% of the training involving contanct, it still is an Erzatzschwert, and eventually you'll want to know how the same drill feels with the real thing, even if that means risking a dent [gasp!].

Just my oppinion of course.

 

[Langenschwert]

In "real life" there will always be blade on blade contact. Very few swordsmen are so gullible to strike in a way that makes it easy to evade without covering with your sword. Different ryuha tell you to deal with blade contact in different ways. Perhaps that was due to differing methods of sword manufacture used at the time of the school's founding? *shrug* I'm still VERY new to koryu kenjutsu. Having fun with it though.

Anyway, if someone WANTS blade contact to happen (as is done in Kunst des Fechtens) it is all but impossible to avoid it. But so what, since your life is on the line.

Though it seems in many Japanese styles, blade contact is preferred as a deflection. In medieval European styles, blade contact comes from counterstriking/binding as well as deflections, though 90 degree edge to edge contact is avoided in most styles. The preference is edge to flat most of the time.

What it all boils down to is "do what you have to do to kill the other guy". Feces happens, and sometimes your sword will get ruined. It's better than getting your arteries ruined.

Your sword will be damaged in a real encounter, take that as a given. Even if there's no blade to blade contact, the opponent might have protective gear. In medieval Europe, over the course of a sword's life, it will have been repaired and sharpened to the point where the edges were a little wavy, and sometime morphing into another blade type entirely. Even on historical examples that were well cared for, edge damage (although sometimes minor) is often apparent.

Do what your ryu tells you to do. If it says block 90 degrees edge to edge, then do it that way. If it says to use your flat in a hanging parry, then do it that way... they have good reasons for their choices.

Besides, say you were in a sword fight. Assuming you win, you now have TWO swords. Sell one and have the other repaired, or sell both and get a nicer new one.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[kaizasosei]

I think Langenschwert has answered this very well, but if i may add.. I personally avoid blade to blade contact for a number of reasons. Most importantly is that i want to block in a way that i can immediately counter. Second, the blade is for cutting, but blocking is not cutting so you can use any part of the sword to block provided it is safe. For example you might not be able to rely on the weak tip of the sword to block yet perhaps sometimes, a simple tap can redirect a strike without a complete clash. Like in karate, they teach to do the upward block at an angle so that for example if someone tries to hit you with a punch or a stick, the blow sortof slides off your forarm rather than the arm taking all the impact. That is the concept. Of course a sword is more or less expendable, an arm not so. Yet, it's not only about saving the sword, it's about good and safe technique.

So if you have no choice but to block with blade then whatever saves you, ok. I often prefer to block with the backside of the sword. Also, if you are fast enough and keep distance well, a block is not always a transient thing like in star wars or other even more unrealistic mockbattles where the people think the sword is the target rather than the opponents body- when you make contact, you also may have the opportunity to hold the opponents blade through contact or even vice it grapple it or sandwich it in a way that the blade is rendered ineffective. Not always blocking with a bang, but holding in a gentle yet firm way covering, poised ready to block if need be.

 

[Langenschwert]

Thankyou all for the replies.

Ken M : it was a general question that came about when somebody told me I should avoid contact at all costs and evade and attack. (This wasnt an instructor of mine). It just seemed impractical to me.

Heh. Good luck with that. Evading and attacking is SLOW. Countering is faster. Better yet, strike him down before he can attack at all. Waiting to counter is a death sentence against a canny attacker, so never give the opponent the chance to mount an offensive in the first place.

I mean, what if your opponent can strike faster than you can move your feet? Then your evasion without blade contact means nothing, since you've effectively stood there and been cut down. If only all my opponents would be so obliging!

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Cryozombie]

Besides, say you were in a sword fight. Assuming you win, you now have TWO swords. Sell one and have the other repaired, or sell both and get a nicer new one.

I like the way you think.

 

[Poor Uke]

Thanks for the replies Mark. This is pretty much what I was thinking.