Some advice wanted.

Kajowaraku

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Since the combined experience on this forum is vast, I figured it might be a good idea to look for some advice concerning my current quest for a sword. Concretely, I'm looking for a decent iaito, which will be used not for iaido, but bikenjutsu training. Basicly, this means that occasionally swords will cross, but for obvious reasons one would not want to do this with shinken. This is mostly trained with Boken, but i'm somewhat pressed into upgrading my trusted whiteoak sword to something shiny with a saya and a bohi (swiiiish!). Nuki-uchi (or nukitsuki, if you will) is an important part of training, and well, it just isn't the same with a bokken. My concern is that typical japanese iaito might not be so resistant to contact, even though it's not supposed to be hard contact. It's the zinc-aluminum alloy that got me somewhat worried. On the other hand, I do like my sword to have the proper feel of balance and rigidity. It 's a bit like a motorbike, you need good feedback from your toy, and you need to be able to rely on it and place your trust in it if you hope to have a good time taking it out for a spin. So here's the general and more specific things i'm looking into:


I'm 183 cm tall by the way, so 2.5 shaku feels quite right without overdoing it.

Japanese Iaito
Tozando: for example: Higo Koshirae (2.50 shaku)

Or alternatively one of the hanwei blades (they're stainless steel -frowning face- )
for example the gorin or tsuru katana.

Personally I would feel more comfortable with tozando, but I have some additional concerns. I hear tozando has abominable (not often one gets to use that word) aftersales custumer service. Second: Their site takes transport into consideration, but i'm somewhat concerned customs and/or what have you might add a considerable fee to the overall cost.

Additionally; I have the opportunity of buying a very nice shinken from an importer i know, but well... to be blunt, a shinken just doesn't cut it when you seek to practice safely, and especially not when practicing forms with a partner. The blade is forged with tamashigiri in mind, but that's not really high on the agenda for now. It pains me, since i like it, but i'm afraid the shinken is not a priority right now.

Oh and I'm Belgian, so US-based stores give me the same problem I have with Japanese -import tax-.

thanks alot for your input. I'm trying to sort it out a bit, but there's just so many options...
 

Ken Morgan

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You actually have to cross swords? An Aluminum iaito or a steel iaito will both get marked up by doing that, bokken are always the best bet for that type of practice.

I think there are only a handful of iaito manufactures left, so it’s really the fitting you’re paying for, and there are only a few of those manufacturers left as well. Outside of custom stuff, it’s all pretty similar.

I bought my shinken and iaito here http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/ Yes it’s my sensei’s site, but it’s great stuff.

You may want to consider a shinken and then just dull the blade.
 
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Kajowaraku

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True, boken are great for doing that, but some things are simply very difficult to train with a boken, like nuki-uchi. The contact is light, but necessary in the sense that it is closer to kenjutsu than iaido. Still, I might be at the level I require a sword to train, in addition to my boken, but I'm really ages removed from doing anything like that with a shinken.

Maiming a shinken by dulling the blade would actually be a good idea, if it weren't against that strong sense of wrongdoing it imparts in me. I could not bring myself to mar a blad like that. I mean, i'm the type of person to sharpen and oil my kitchen knives after each use. Imagine how much love I'll put into a sword. I'll probably call it "razorbaby" and take it out for dinner.
 

jks9199

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Can't your instructor advise you on where to obtain an appropriate sword, and what to buy?

These sorts of questions always make me wonder... If I tell my students they need something to train, I give them the guidance on where to buy it, how to make it, or otherwise how to obtain it.
 

Ken Morgan

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True, boken are great for doing that, but some things are simply very difficult to train with a boken, like nuki-uchi. The contact is light, but necessary in the sense that it is closer to kenjutsu than iaido. Still, I might be at the level I require a sword to train, in addition to my boken, but I'm really ages removed from doing anything like that with a shinken.

Maiming a shinken by dulling the blade would actually be a good idea, if it weren't against that strong sense of wrongdoing it imparts in me. I could not bring myself to mar a blad like that. I mean, i'm the type of person to sharpen and oil my kitchen knives after each use. Imagine how much love I'll put into a sword. I'll probably call it "razorbaby" and take it out for dinner.

When I got my shinken it was like a razor, I ran it over a sharpening stone a half dozen times to take the “holy ****” factor away from it. Now it just a “whoa” factor. It’ll still cut you good, but at least your thumb will still be attached!!

I disagree with using iaito for contact, but that’s not the discussion. Thinking about it, I’d get a shinken and take the edge off of it. You can always put it back on later. A sword is a tool, not an idol.
 
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Kajowaraku

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Can't your instructor advise you on where to obtain an appropriate sword, and what to buy?

These sorts of questions always make me wonder... If I tell my students they need something to train, I give them the guidance on where to buy it, how to make it, or otherwise how to obtain it.

Sensei is overly busy at this time, and since i'm a big boy the arrangement is that I find what seems appropriate, and than check with him what his take is on the suggestions at hand. Besides, swords are very personal, and I would really not like to delegate the responsibility of making a good pick to somebody else. I enjoy taking my time for these things. There is no urgency in my need, I would just like to get it right.

Ken, I share your concern in using iaito for contact though, even though that is generally what is being used for these drills, so the contact can't be too hard. Training can also include drills with sword vs bo, so, or naginata (althouigh the latter two are rather uncommon), so it's not just sword vs sword.
 

jks9199

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Sensei is overly busy at this time, and since i'm a big boy the arrangement is that I find what seems appropriate, and than check with him what his take is on the suggestions at hand. Besides, swords are very personal, and I would really not like to delegate the responsibility of making a good pick to somebody else. I enjoy taking my time for these things. There is no urgency in my need, I would just like to get it right.

Ken, I share your concern in using iaito for contact though, even though that is generally what is being used for these drills, so the contact can't be too hard. Training can also include drills with sword vs bo, so, or naginata (althouigh the latter two are rather uncommon), so it's not just sword vs sword.
Sorry, but I still think your sensei is being less than helpful. I didn't say I would buy the sword or other items for students. But I would give them one or more places to obtain it or tell them how to make it. For example, I just placed an order for uniforms and other items for the class. Several of the items were in the "you don't have to buy it from me, I'm just listing them here for convenience" category. One or two were in the "This precise item is what you need..." category.

I'm not suggesting your sensei should buy you a sword or even choose it for you. But he should be able to say "Cheness iato are decent, AWMA sells wallhanger sword-like-objects that won't work for training." or the like. After all, without guidance, how can he be sure you'll get something decent?
 

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Hi,

I would look to the "other" metal training sword. As you know, a Shinken is a real sword, sharp and dangerous, but strong and designed to handle the impact of cutting. An Iaito, on the other hand, is not made of steel, but rather an aluminium/zinc alloy (in most cases), which is too soft to be able to take an edge, but is also to soft to handle impact. You will most likely damage your Iaito if you use it as such. In fact, the top blade here is my custom sword (they wanted to use the pic's as they thought it turned out pretty well) http://www.j-armory.com/FYHaya.html.

Other options if you are looking at things like Nuki Uchi are bokken with saya. My personal favourite from my collection (I have a number of different scabbarded bokken) is this one from www.bokkenshop.com - http://bokkenshop.com/eng/260.html. The scabbard is made of a resin, which makes it very solid (as opposed to the plastic scabbards you can find around), the base of the blade has a form of habaki, which allows getting your sword ready to draw quite close to a real sword.

The third option is what is known as a Mogito. This is a steel sword, tempered and forged like a real one in the best, but not given an edge. It can be sharpened, and the kissaki is pretty much as dangerous as a Shinken's, but overall it's a bit safer to use in drills than a Shinken, and more usable (realistic) than an Iaito. I personally have a Togakure Ryu Mogito made for me from Furuyama Forge (ordered through www.j-armory.com), which I like a lot.
 

Chris Parker

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Sorry, re-reading that last one, may need a little clarification. The sword I have is a Mogito (mentioned in the last paragraph), not an Iaito. Should link where it's needed, not just where I think of it, I guess...
 
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Kajowaraku

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Interesting site, especially the boken with saya are nice. I've used plasticy saya before, but those tend to break way too easily it seems. Too bad quality has a price, even in boken.

Thanks
 

Chris Parker

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Yeah, bokkenshop is great quality, but expensive. I've had a number of custom items from them, including a matching wakizashi to the resin scabbarded katana bokken, and the prices are not easy... the wakizashi was the same price as the long sword.

That said, their customer service is fantastic, the quality is brilliant, and I feel it is definately more than worth the price. The way I look at it is that it is a specialist field, and in that regard you are paying for the specialisation. If I have to pay a little more to allow the company to continue to make things for me of this quality, I'm going to agree with it.
 
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Kajowaraku

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Yup, but unfortunatly it does mean it has to be a purchase for the long term planning. Most certainly worth checking it out though. It will all depend on how easy it will be to get them to deliver to my country. Also I wonder about the extra fees that will incur. Than again, a good boken is a friend for life. (no, i'm not idolising my boken :D ).

What I am looking for now appears to be a mogito. My teacher uses a nihonsei iaito, but it has to be said he is very gentle with it, even though I wonder about the blade getting marred. It hardly seems avoidable.
 

Chris Parker

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Bokkenshop's site includes calculations for shipping, any import tax would be a question for your local customs department. But the postage is not too bad, the majority of costs are the items themselves. And I agree that tools like this are for the long term, but after 22 years in martial arts, including 17 in Ninjutsu, I'm pretty fine with that.

The edge of a katana is always a delicate thing, which is main reason the majority of Japanese swordsmanship is evasive cutting. Within Kukishin Bikenjutsu there are two "jamming" kata (tsuba zerai, found in Kiri Sage and Kiri Sage Sayu Gyaku), with one defelection kata (Kin Shi, also known as Sayu Gyaku in some versions). The jamming action is done at the bottom of the blade, near the tsuba, to both give the most structural inregrity, but also to limit the amount of damage to the weapon itself.

If you are talking about these actions, then no metal blade I have seen will be completely safe from being marred. But if you are talking about the "tapping" at the beginning of a training drill, that could concievably be done with an Iaito. I just wouldn't use a blocking or solid deflecting action.

If you are after a Mogito, as I said, I would go to the j-armory site, the blades listed as Iaito from Furuyama are not really Iaito, but Mogito. They just use the Iaito name because it is more well known. But they are very nice weapons, and you can customise pretty much as much as you want (to your own body size, for example).
 

Langenschwert

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I bought my shinken and iaito here http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/ Yes it’s my sensei’s site, but it’s great stuff.

I got my Niten bokuto set there. Great service, great product.

If you're doing blade on blade contact, there will always be some damage, even with steel. With German longsword, I tend to use ONLY steel whenever possible. I use an Albion Liechtenauer for that, and it's a tank that moves like a Ferrari. A good solid mogito is what the OP is looking for.

However, the only thing that feels like sharp steel is sharp steel. It's just that blunt steel is the safest thing we have available.

Doesn't SDK have a mogito for sale?

Best regards,

-Mark
 

Ken Morgan

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I got my Niten bokuto set there. Great service, great product.

If you're doing blade on blade contact, there will always be some damage, even with steel. With German longsword, I tend to use ONLY steel whenever possible. I use an Albion Liechtenauer for that, and it's a tank that moves like a Ferrari. A good solid mogito is what the OP is looking for.

However, the only thing that feels like sharp steel is sharp steel. It's just that blunt steel is the safest thing we have available.

Doesn't SDK have a mogito for sale?

Best regards,

-Mark



They do have mogito.

Hey, I take it you made it out to the Niten seminar a few weeks back? Kim and Collin treat you guys right?
 

Langenschwert

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They do have mogito.

Hey, I take it you made it out to the Niten seminar a few weeks back? Kim and Collin treat you guys right?

Yeah, top notch! It was my second time for Niten, and first time for Jodo. Good stuff, and it's nice to do something a little different. :) Say hi to Kim for me.

Best regards,

-Mark
 

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You need to go to a place that sells stage swords or I do extreme swords go to Cochranes on the net for swords you can bang around.
 

Chris Parker

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Nope, gotta disagree with that completely. Knowing the types of things that Kajowaraku is using it for, I'm going to bet that he is going to have similar needs to mine, and such lightweight little things are not going to achieve the more realistic feel he is going for. These things are designed for competition in which there is almost nothing even closely resembling actual swordsmanship, and are little more than toys in my opinion. The dimensions are all wrong, for one thing, they have very different balance and weight (so the competitors can throw, spin, and catch their "weapons" in competition). A good thought, but unfortunately not a good idea.
 

ninja5

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There is a place in Chicago called Rittersteel Swords trust me you wont break them. They are for full contact I have used there swords.
 

Chris Parker

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Hmm, had a quick look at their site, a few alarm bells ring out. They are talking about using the same forging method "over hot coals", for their "high carbon steel" blades. That tells me they don't know how the actual weapons were/are forged. And they are not just high carbon steel, that's only part of the recipe. The "straight ninja-swords" are pure fantasy, having them amongst curved "samurai" blades isn't a good sign either.

They do certainly appear more solid that the Cochranes extreme ones you mentioned earlier, but still not something I would recommend either. Kajowaraku is not worried about breaking the swords, more just about marking them in the minimal contact our art has between blades. And most of these swords seem to be designed as fairly budget "cutters", again not the idea we are going for. Kajowaraku was definate in his not wanting a Shinken at this point, but something a little more solid than an Iaito.

So you know, the sheaths, bindings, blade design, and fittings are all inaccurate, so I don't think these are a good match either. But they are certainly more solid, and would stand up to more abuse than an Iaito.
 

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