Sword Drills

[East Winds]

In Traditional Yang Family Sword training, we practise using 2,3,4 and 5 man drills. In 2 man drills we practise how to deal with various incoming attacks, your opponent in front of you. In 3 man drills you also have to turn and deal with an opponent behind you. 4 and 5 man drills you stand in the centre with your opponents surrounding you. Each "opponent" uses a different technique to attack you and you as the defender are required to use all the correct footwork and defensive sword mechanisms you learned whilst training the sword form. You are not necessarily aware of which attacking technique your "opponent" is going to use.The training is not in the sense of dealing with mutiple opponents, but being able to defend attacks using correct sword techniques. Do others also train these drills?

Very best wishes

 

[count]

As a disclaimer, I don't specifically study Yang family sword. I have had a number of years in traditional sword and weapons training under my belt though. And I did once learn a yang style sword form.

Certainly over the years, I have learned drills to develop certain skills. I have done some "gauntlet" training similar to what you described, that require you to use appropriate techniques against specific attacks against multiple opponents. Great for endurance, BTW. Not for sword training per say. But good fun stuff.

I think the key here is how you should develop the skills you apply in this "free play" kind of drill.

As a teacher, can you describe the methodology you use to integrate sword basics, ie: attack, defense, gates and footwork etc.? Do you or your students "spar" or compete with swords or is it more about what the weapons training does to improve your "Tai Chi" form and practice? :jediduel:

 

[East Winds]

Count,

Thanks for the response. I practise Traditional Yang Family Jian (67 posture). As you will know, each of the sword postures (like Taijiquan) has martial applications. Therefore for the sword postures/form to be practised correctly, each posture must be martially applicable. If they are not, then the form is not correct. The object of 2, 3 4 and 5 man drills is to practise the applications with an actual opponent. Slowly at first then at actual speed. The object is to see whether your foot work and sword work are correct in responding to an attack. It is an exercise for both attacker and defender, for of course the attack must also be correct. It can eventually be developed into a sort of two man form similar to what we have in Taijiquan. The object is not really to try and respond to multiple opponents, but rather to make sure that each attack is defended according to the principles of Traditional Yang Family Jian form.

Very best wishes

Very best wishes

 

[count]

Are you implying that the Traditional Yang Family Jian (67 posture) contains all the jian's useful techniques in the postures? Maybe I'm not clear about what you mean by postures in relationship to the applications. I'm not even so sure that taiji chuan form postures have anything to do with applications. Isn't taiji supposed to be about principles not application. Aren't more of the applications in the transitions, not the postures anyway?

In most of the Chinese sword systems, (if not all martial arts) I've seen, you have "X" number of basic cuts/parrys/..., say more than 10 and less than 100. There are forms or sets that contain many (usually not all) of them. Usually these forms have a two man component that simulates offense and defense. Sometimes it's part of the same forms and sometimes it's a separate form. You weren't clear whether your "Traditional Yang Family Jian (67 posture)" form has this existing or can "eventually be developed"?

There is footwork, which can be drilled as a separate component or as part of "the form". But applications frequently need to be taken off line or with different steps/stances/postures.

My question to you, was about your methodology for teaching. You seem to put yourself out there publicly as a certified instructor, so I was asking about the way you teach your students to apply the lessons they get in class. As someone who might be teaching martial arts to students someday, I want to give my students a method they can take out of the lab into the real world where there won't be a teacher of senior to ask or practice on.

We seem to be on a really slow forum here, and I'm a noobie here so I don't know if any other teachers contribute to this bulletin board. If you would rather discuss in PM or e-mail, let me know. Or, if you would rather not discuss at all, that'd be ok with me. Or if you want to tell me to buzz off, I might understand.

I'm no expert, but I do agree with you about one thing. If you don't understand the usage and the martial intent, than the forms are meaning-less.

Anyone want to discuss drills for sword?:duel:

 

[East Winds]

count,

Sorry you find our forum so pedestrian, not all of us are hanging on the end of a keyboard awaiting a reply to our posts. Some of us have a life:shrug:

I am not implying that Traditional Yang Jian contains all the Jians useful techniques in the postures. I am saying that all the Traditional Yang Jian postures contain useful techniques. And despite what you appear to think I am well aware of the differences between postures, applications and transitions. I have no idea what you mean when you suggest that Taiji is about principles and not applications. Unless of course the form you do is Wushu or "New Age" based. Again I have no idea what you mean by "But applications frequently need to be taken off line or with different steps/stances/ postures" I can only assume from that, that your footwork in the form, must be very different to what you do in applications which of course implies that your form footwork is sloppy.

I don't "seem" to put myself "out there publicly as a certified Instructor". I am a Grade "A" registered Instructor and listed on the Register of Exercise Professionals here in the UK and have been practising Taijiquan for 19 years. I teach students at all levels. What I teach my students is the same, irrespective of whether they only want Taijiquan for health or Taijiquan for martial purposes. The training is identicle. The only difference is my health students don't practise applications or do sparring.

I am perfectly happy to discuss aspects of training with you here on this forum, provided it is a sensible and civilised discussion.

Very best wishes

 

[count]

count,

Sorry you find our forum so pedestrian, not all of us are hanging on the end of a keyboard awaiting a reply to our posts. Some of us have a life:shrug:

I am not implying that Traditional Yang Jian contains all the Jians useful techniques in the postures. I am saying that all the Traditional Yang Jian postures contain useful techniques. And despite what you appear to think I am well aware of the differences between postures, applications and transitions. I have no idea what you mean when you suggest that Taiji is about principles and not applications. Unless of course the form you do is Wushu or "New Age" based. Again I have no idea what you mean by "But applications frequently need to be taken off line or with different steps/stances/ postures" I can only assume from that, that your footwork in the form, must be very different to what you do in applications which of course implies that your form footwork is sloppy.

I don't "seem" to put myself "out there publicly as a certified Instructor". I am a Grade "A" registered Instructor and listed on the Register of Exercise Professionals here in the UK and have been practising Taijiquan for 19 years. I teach students at all levels. What I teach my students is the same, irrespective of whether they only want Taijiquan for health or Taijiquan for martial purposes. The training is identicle. The only difference is my health students don't practise applications or do sparring.

I am perfectly happy to discuss aspects of training with you here on this forum, provided it is a sensible and civilised discussion.

Very best wishes

I won't reply to all these assumptions except to say, I happen to enjoy most martial artists I meet on forums. I happen to read them and post after my morning practice and before a long work day in front of computers. I have trained with 5 teachers over the past 30 years and none of them taught "new age", "wushu" crap.

You started a thread about sword drills, which caught my eye. I thought I asked you some direct questions. In the spirit of sensible, civilized discussion, could you address them instead of your personal assumptions about me?

 

[count]

What I meant by "taking applications of line" with different steps, is applications from a form are different when the opponent is facing or matching your stance. Applications and angles change depending on distance. Sometimes applications don't differ from the form at all.

Before form it's more important to learn how to use the jian. You have to apply basic principles such as stick and follow, block high attack low, where to go when your opponent moves, etc.. You have to learn the basic cuts and defense.

15 basics of sword are:

Pi
Kan
Mo
Hui
Liao
Ci
Beng
Dian
Cuo
Tiao
Quan
Gua
Xiao
Bao
Ti

These basics are drilled stationary, than with footwork/steps, with a partner, and than "fast track", as my teacher always called it.

With a partner you begin to understand gates. Outside, Center and Inside gates. My teacher taught me that attacking from the outside is most direct and most easy to defend. Attacking from the center gate required the most skill. Attacking across the inside gate is most powerful but also most dangerous. We called these gates, 'dragon gate', 'snake gate', and tiger gate'.

After drilling the sword basics, it's fairly easy to learn forms. But if you haven't ingrained the basics, it's easy to misinterpret a movement from a form and thus practice it incorrectly. Forms are for passing on a system from teacher to student. But basics are for training skills and usage. As I said in my first post,

Certainly over the years, I have learned drills to develop certain skills. I have done some "gauntlet" training similar to what you described, that require you to use appropriate techniques against specific attacks against multiple opponents. Great for endurance, BTW. Not for sword training per say. But good fun stuff. :jediduel:

I learned many drills over the years and I'd be happy to share them and exchange ideas on the forum.

PS
EastWind,

I didn't intend to diminish your credentials, but I didn't understand what a
"Advanced Instructor Level 3 Register of Exercise Professionals" was or how it relates to Tai Chi Chuan. We don't have that kind of certification here in the US. And I don't want you to think I judge this forum as anything except for slow. (maybe just in the "Chinese Arts" section) But there it is, six days later.:flame:

 

[East Winds]

count,

I cannot disagree with anything you have posted. (Well, perhaps only slightly with some aspects). The greatest problem with Chinese MA's is that students usually ONLY learn forms. I think applications are applications and they need to be varied according to what attack you are facing. However, they should not differ in any great extent to what you are doing in form training. For instance "Strum the Lute" can be used to break an arm or dislocate a shoulder, but the hand position in both is the same and should be the hand position you practise in the form. If Strum the Lute was not appropriate to the attack then of course you would use another application. So it is in Jian training. The object of working with partners is to make sure that your form postures are applicable in a martial sense. For instance in Traditional Yang 68 Jian the posture "Casting the Fishing Rod" is used to deflect a straight thrust and return a cut with the tip of the Jian to the opponents thumb tendon. Of course there are several ways to deal with any Jian attack and I agree absolutely that static and basic Jian training is an essential pre-requisite to any form training. The reason we practise multiple attacks at real speed is to order and calm the mind and put into practise everything we learned in the basic cuts, thrusts, blocks and defense training so that response becomes automatic and effective.

I would be interetsed in hearing about the drills you practise and what Jian traing you have undertaken.

Very best wishes

 

[count]

Thank you,

Before I met my Sifu, I spent 8 years with a northern shaolin teacher. For sword, I learned 3 of 4 forms the teacher taught. San Tsai Jian, Kun Wu Jian and Rainbow sword. I learned the 4th, but I don't remember it. I also learned sabers, double sabers and a saber vs. spear forms.

When I was learning to teach the Yang 24 form to the public, I also learned a corresponding sword form from another teacher.

From my Sifu, Jason Tsou, I learned San Tsai Jian again, only focused more on usage than form. Same with Kun Wu sword as well as some deerhorns, hook swords and elbow knives. I consider them swords as well. I also learned some Miao Dao (double handled sabers). I spent around 20 years with laoshi Jason.

Since I left my Sifu 2 years ago, he has been forming an organization called World Jian Shu for the purpose of establishing competition formats and rules for future tournaments with jian.

Here is a video clip of him explaining some of the concepts I have been alluding to in my posts. He is explaining Kun Wu Jian and showing how things vary depending on gates and distances.

I will post some more clips later as I'm on my way out for the day. I'll look for some that are more "drill" specific.

 

[East Winds]

count,

Thanks for the input. I am aware of some of the forms you mentioned, but not all of them. The clip of your Sifu is good and is very much the way my own teacher teaches and demonstrates applications. (Only we are not allowed the luxury of protective gloves!!!!!!):erg:. In fact the process is very close to how we practise and are taught applications. However I think not every school follows this programme and that was the purpose of my original post, to find out how many school actually teach this way. I would be interested in seeing some more clips.

Very best wishes

 

[count]

count,

The clip of your Sifu is good and is very much the way my own teacher teaches and demonstrates applications. (Only we are not allowed the luxury of protective gloves!!!!!!):erg:. In fact the process is very close to how we practise and are taught applications.
Very best wishes

Protective gloves are always optional, but be sure you have dry ice ready to transport anything to the hospital you might want to use later in life.

I'll get some more clips up later. Kind of a busy week for me. Any others here who can share some drills or exercises?:stoplurk:

 

[count]

Here are some clips of various sword drills

Of course these things evolve with necessity.

Did you ever learn any specific chi kung based on sword besides tai chi form?

Are there any other sword players here, particularly in the Chicago area, who might be interested in forming a team to compete in upcoming tournaments?

 

[kaustabh]

I am a jian player but far away from you. Kolkata, India. Yang tai chi sword from Yang Jwing-Ming linage. Two person sword drills I practice often with my childhood friend.