KLAS LARSSON
Think that you are doing applications when you do the form, do it as if there are somebody, and you will have a new experience every day.
Now this is more or less a quote from Tung Hu Ling, not really "mine", but I really have had lots of use for it, when the form gets "empty".
It's not what form you work on, but how you do it, and Tai Chi is a martial art, even if it's for health, and spirituality, that is also true of course.
This can be applied to dao and jian to, but it takes a bit of work to figure the applications. But it's well worth it.
And it's good when there is no partner for the tui shou, you still develop your skill, and energy.
You ren rou wu ren
Wu ren ruo you ren
is another quote, saying basically the same thing, and some more, about emptiness, dont know if it makes any sense to you, but I saw in some old post that you know Chinese language.
I have done this for years; my Sifu has always emphasized doing the form as if there is an opponent with intent. I hate to keep referring back to the Tao of Jeet Kune Do in a thread about taiji but it is kind of what brought this to light but this one that I read last night pretty much made this a bit clearer for me.
Forms are vain repetitions which offer an orderly and beautiful escape from self-knowledge with and live opponent
It’s the self knowledge bit that hit me. I have done the long form for close to 14 years and I have done it with intent for the better part of that 14 years. But I have always done it in my basement or in front of my Sifu during class. Any other time it was in a similar area with a nice flat floor in a well lit area with air conditioning and after awhile you realize that this is not reality, not that the form is not reality, it is a training tool that does have its basis in reality but the training in perfect conditions for something that will not happen under perfect conditions. My interest in Systema and my training in Sanda brought that to light so before winter I decided why not try the long form outside and I was AMAZED at what I began to learn about myself, energy, and taiji that you simply cannot learn inside a room, or at least I couldn’t. And with the onset of winter I am not able to get outside to train and I think that coupled with what I know occurs when training outside has brought on this feeling of most of the Yang forms I train are superfluous. I am hoping that when spring gets here and I can get back outside that this feeling will go away because currently inside even with intent there is little happening of any worth in my opinion. TO be honest I am wondering today if I can do part of the form in a stairwell to see what happens or what I learn (or if I fall a couple of flight realizing this was a silly idea)
As to my Chinese I am learning, I am far from conversational but my wife is conversational, a side effect from being born and growing up in China I guess, she has all the luck
STEEL TIGER
First let me say I am not a fan of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. To me it reads like a clumsy regurgitation of Lao Tze so I tend to avoid it in favour of Lao Tze and Zhuang Tze.
But having said that I think you might have a point. I would never call any of the forms superfluous but you might be earnestly practicing too many. I am pleased to hear that you feel you are getting to where you would like to be with taiji. Given that, and combining with your sanda training, less will probably produce more. The only thing that I would worry about is losing focus on some aspect because it is not well represented in the material you choose to concentrate on.
But, if we listen to the taiji masters of the past, the art really is very simple - 13 postures, push hands, sticking, yielding, and a philosophy of change and adaptation really covers it all.
I am not saying the Tao of Jeet Kune Do is the bible of MA, actually it was unfinished when Lee died. It was put together from Lee’s notes and published after his death. IT is just interesting what years of training do to your perspective on the book. And it is making me realize some things that I likely would have come up with on my own, actually I already was, just not as fast as this.
OF late the only forms I practice are Traditional Yang forms and those forms from Tung Ying Jie and Tung Hu Ling that I have learned from my Sifu. I do not regret learning any of them but I am currently feeling that training I am learning abut as much as if I get up and walk form the living room to the kitchen. I was working in Siu Lim Tao again and trying to maintain Xingyiquan Wu Xing but I stopped both of those. However the possibility of Wing Chun returning is still looming but that is a wait and see thing at this point. And to be honest I can see that a combination of Wing Chun and Sanda would be an incredible thing. Not that either needs to be combined with anything to be effective it is just that Sanda really has no internal work where Wing Chun does and Wing Chun is light on Qinna and Sanda isn’t and their approaches to conflict are quite similar. But then I have seen similarities to any CMA I have trained and Sanda which is not all that surprising considering its origin.
One last note, my Sifu has said and other Sifu’s who’s books I have read have said pretty much the same thing, If you just understand (fully) the 13 postures you can be a very effective martial artist.
FLYING CRANE
I actually understand what you are thinking and feeling. I sometimes find myself having simlar thoughts, not specifically about tai chi, but about my Chinese arts in general. There are some forms I like better than others, some seem to "fit" me better, but I still do all those that I have learned, which is a lot. I also find myself contemplating the notion that maybe I should let some of them go. But I think perhaps what has prevented me from doing so is the idea that maybe I'm not yet ready to make that decision. Maybe I'm still benefiting from practicing them all, but perhaps a time will come when it comes clear to me that I need to prune the tree a bit.
I fully understand this and I have been here (kind of) before. I let Bagua go and I let Long fist go and I let Wu style go and I have most recently decided that I really need to let Chen style go and I know I need to let Xingyiquan go but that one is hard and Wing Chun keeps popping up but I know I need to let more go it is just not easy. But I have not felt before that any where superfluous they all were teaching me something but I had to stop in order to have the time to focus on something and I chose Traditional Yang Style Taijiquan. And that one would be and is very very hard to let go since I have done it for so long and I have the highest respect for my Sifu and I truly feel that there are none better to learn Yang style from inside or outside of China. There are some just as good, but none better.
Which is just a long way of saying obviously the time has not come all to clear to me yet
FLYING CRANE
whoa, whoa whoa, dude. One thing to keep in mind: armageddon and cannibalistic zombie invasion. keep the future in mind. important stuff here. If you wanna be among the survivors when civilization collapses, you better hit the weapons double-time!
DAMN!!! I Hadn’t thought of that.. but I need not worry about that to much.. .I have not given up the ultimate, most deadly martial art of all time…. XUEFU :mst:
I just didn’t want to mention that to avoid striking fear in the hearts of all that read this. Being the second in Xuefu I am know understand. :EG:
GGG214
comparing with your 14 year's taiji experience, my way on taiji is so short. so what i say is just for your information.
i have been told and now am still being told that kung fu comes from simple way.maybe it's the same as simple to simplify. so in my taiji training, all the contents are standing stakes, single movement(such as yun shou, lan que wei etc),and push hands. my master said that form is only a bottle, when you have Martial art energy or kung fu, then you put them in the bottle(forms).before that, concentrate on the basic training.and he also said one form is enough for a taiji practitioner.
i want to say that keep your concentration on one point of CMA. when you break into the circle of CMA, then widen your training. these are certain steps you couldn't break.
except taiji, my master also have learnt ba gua, xin yi liu he from famous masters at his time in shanghai. they have taught my master no forms but kinds of basic training.the interesting point is that my master is asked by these famous masters to learning, not upon my master's requirement.
Thank you all thoughts on this are greatly appreciated. My Taiji Sifu has only studied Taiji for many years (over 50) and my Sanda Sifu has only trained Sanda for many years (about 30) but my sanda Sifu has picked up some Bagua and Xingyi forms along the way. He was the one that forced me to make a decision a few months back between Sanda and Xingyi. Not that he thought either was superior or inferior, he just could not understand how I could train both at my low level and learn anything without focus. He had no problem with my taiji since I had been doing to for so long. So I would say he fully agrees with your Sifu on this. My taiji Sifu was not unhappy about Xingyiquan but he wasn’t happy about it either. He said do it first and a warm-up before doing Taiji if you must do Xingyi. He also told me stories about his Sifu and sifus of that time not allowing student to train with anyone else, But he never told me to stop. But that made me decide to not tell him about Sanda at all.
I do plan on talking to my Taiji Sifu about this when I see him this week.
JIN GANG
I understand exactly where you are. After 17 years of learning martial arts, I'm at the same place. Actually, I've been in the reducing phase for a couple years now. I spent three years training in "hardcore" mode, spending enough time at the school for it to be a second job, learning tons of forms and weapons. Now I've reduced. I don't intend to forget anything I learned, but I don't have time to practice all of it all the time. It's time to focus, and narrow down to a few forms that really express my personal style.
It's not a waste of time to learn all that stuff, because you have to have material to work with before you start reducing and simplifying. How do you know what's best for you, if you don't try anything to begin with? This is something I think people overlook when talking about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do. He learned traditional kung fu before he was able to simplify and find his personal style. In order to get to his stage, you need to have learned something already. If you just start with the simplified techniques, how is this a journey of self discovery? It's more like mimicing the self discovery of someone else. His philosophy is from the perspective of someone with years of experience and knowledge of martial arts, it doesn't really work for someone who is just beginning.
The purpose of remembering and practicing the forms which you may not personally find useful anymore, is for the sake of the next generation. If and when you teach others, they ought to be given the same opportunity you had to learn and discover what works for them. The journey of learning all those forms is part of what brought us where we are now...I think it's important to give anyone I might teach the same building blocks I had.
Very good point, thank you. When I started with my first Sifu (interestingly enough 17 years ago) I too spent enough time there to be a second job and I learned a whole lot of empty hand, weapons forms and some qigong and I do not regret any of that training it did help me decide where to go from there. And I agree many do not take into account that Bruce Lee came from Wing Chun. After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do the first time is what lead me to my first Sifu and eventually got me to my Wing Chun Sifu (only briefly, twice, with a possible third time on the horizon ). I like to know the root of things and Wing Chun, in my opinion, is the root of JKD. My second Sifu did ask me to focus on Taiji which lead me to stopping Wing Chun and training with my first Sifu. But to be honest I was going to stop training with my first Sifu anyway. He had changed a lot and he was more concerned with money then than Kung Fu or Taiji.
GGG214
it's really hard to find a martial art suitable for oneself. attempt may be the only way to find out the answer.but do you have enough time to have a try?although spending years to make a start may reduce the possibility of stepping on the wrong way, how many people do you think have patience to do that?
in my opinion, some kinds of martial arts , in their training methods, have conflicts with each other.for example, taiji reject muscle training, but external martial arts accept. how could you do that at the same time?
every martial art contains a lot of things, philosophy,theory of control, knowledge of strength etc.a life time might be not enough to dig out,how could you think you have known enough for a martial art?
Taiji does not really reject muscle training it just does not emphasize it like Changquan does. And I do not nor have I ever felt I know enough of any martial art which is the reason I chose Xue Sheng as a name here, it means student. But there comes a time where other forms may get in the way of developing in the direction you feel you should. I am not saying that I have learned all I can from the long form, although I suppose that is possible. What I am beginning to feel based on further reading of the book that triggered this and the response to my post is that I have learned all I can form the long form under the conditions in which I have been training it for almost 14 years.
EAST WINDS
Xue Sheng,
After 19 years in the Chinese IMA's I shed everything 7 years ago except traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. O.K. I still "do" Yi Chuan and Zhan Zhuang, but mainly for health. 7 years ago I thought after all my time in the art that I was pretty good at Taiji. Then I discovered that all I was really doing was form. I wasn't doing Taiji!!! I was really suffering from Monkey Brain. From personal experience I can tell you that you are on the threshold of the "real" door to Taijiquan. You just need to push it open and walk through. Your Taiji Sifu is the person who can help this to happen. Trust him.
After, I believe, 10 years or so of JMA followed by KMA I was forced to quit due to a back injury and I thought MA was over. I read Tao of Jeet Kune Do and began to think maybe I cold go back and began looking for a school. I found my first Sifu and Taijiquan (and a whole lot of other CMA forms and styles as well) and that was almost 17 years ago.
I was not able to do any JMA or KMA or any hard styles for a while. All I could do was the Yang Taiji forms and Wu style forms he taught me. My first intro back to harder styles was the Old form of Chen style Laojia Yilu he taught and then it went on to Long fist, Bagua and Xingyi. He opened the door for me to CMA and helped me get my back working again so I am forever grateful for that. But I had to give up all of the forms he taught me along the way, some I regret others I do not. ( I have not regretted giving up that Long Fist Jain form one day since I stopped it – no handed cart wheels with a jain in one hand are just not for me). However I love staff forms and I have sadly stopped all he taught me, Shaolin, Xingyi, Taiji and triple section (also Kwan Dao – not staff but similar) I just did not have the time to train everything, especially since at that time I was learning the long form from my second Sifu.
But of late I have been feeling that in order to push open that door I need to leave the long form behind. However as I said prior it may just be that I need to move it to somewhere else in order to learn more form it, not sure about that yet.
And I fully plan on discussing this with my Sifu this week.
EAST WINDS
I should also have said I still train Jian and Dao. They are important extensions to Taiji. If you are still only "waving them about" (as I was for many years), there is still a wonderful world of self discovery waiting.
My teacher always says Jian is for the surgeon. Dao is for the butcher. So true. Jian - such devastating delicacy.
Very best wishes
I guarantee you I am not still just waving them about, my Sifu won’t let me
But I see no real world application to them any longer and though they are an extension I am not sure that they are anymore important than the fast forms or tui shou or the 13 postures or that they could teach me anything different than any of those. I guess I am feeling that it is highly unlikely that I am ever going to be walking down the street carrying a jain or a Dao for protection these days.
And my Sifu as was his Sifu is/was very found of the Jian. In their opinion it takes more skill to use properly and I agree. But my own personal preference based on your teachers statement… I guess I’m a butcher :EG:
