Doc
Senior Master
The latest issue of "Martial Arts Magazine" (October) has my article entitled, "Swimming With Sharks." Re countering street grapplers within Kenpo techniques.
SubLevel Four Article
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MartialArtsGuy
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This I'm going to have to see, since this debate is so popular. I just have to figure out which store sells it.
Dr. Chapel,
Did you write this article or did one of your students write this one?:asian:
Did you write this article or did one of your students write this one?:asian:
Doc- I recently purchased the magazine. It was a very interesting article. I glanced through it briefly, so I still need to sit and read it more indepth. I thought that there were definately some very good points in the article. I have to wonder though, why more of these principles are not used in the NHB fights? I mean, if the striker does not want to go to the ground, wouldnt you think that they would be learning these concepts to avoid the takedown?
Question for you. In the photos with the attempted bearhug takedowns, am I safe to assume that there is more of a follow up to the move on the part of the defender? Also, in the majority of NHB fights that I have seen, whenever someone is grabbed from behind, the person doing the grabbing is usually also doing a foot stomp or knee strikes to the legs. Is this going to be addressed as part of the defense against the attack? Usually the person grabbing is not going to be staying in one spot.
Mike
Question for you. In the photos with the attempted bearhug takedowns, am I safe to assume that there is more of a follow up to the move on the part of the defender? Also, in the majority of NHB fights that I have seen, whenever someone is grabbed from behind, the person doing the grabbing is usually also doing a foot stomp or knee strikes to the legs. Is this going to be addressed as part of the defense against the attack? Usually the person grabbing is not going to be staying in one spot.
Mike
OP
Doc
Senior Master
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- #5
Although like most articles it is heavily edited, it is my writing and points out some really great principles. Very applicable. Conceptually, SubLevel Four Kenpo philosophically demands you dominate and control the space between you and your attacker on all techniques until conclusion.
My students for the most part don't do much writing nor do you see them posting on the net. They are so busy in their daily lives, they're are just happy to get to classes.
I apologize my browser is not allowing me to post periodically, and this one is acting weird as well. The administrators are trying to figure out whats wrong.
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Doc
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #6
Thank you. I only seek to inform, and educate different points of view to generate thought.
NHB competition although tough, are not "fights," only promoted as such. They are in fact sport competition with specific rules that exclude certain techniques. This is why the story specifically states "street grappler," as opposed to a competition. Competition grapplers train to compete and purposely exclude many things from training that would cause injury, but would be the norm in a street fight.
That is not to say that much of what they do can't be effective. An arm lock taken to its extreme conclusion is still possibly a broken arm. However on the other side of the equation, there are many holds, locks, etc, you would be less inclined to attempt if you knew your "victim" could stick his fingers in your eyes, seize or strike your throat, pull your hair, seize or strike your testicles, bend your fingers, or sink his teeth in to your soft flesh and gnash down to the bone while you "locked him." Its about philosophy of competition versus combat.
Yes that is correct. The story emphasizes certain "street grappling principles" inherent in the component I call "Survivng The Initial Assault," and not techniques per se. It is very difficult to do in writing because it is such a "hands on" activity that must be felt to be understood and of course learned. So much so, in our coursebooks, certain elements are never written but are coded for instructors to teach. "Survivng The Initial Assault" is one of them and is different for every technique situation. Therefore when you see these phrases in the book, it interprets "see the instructor." Have you ever noticed that manipulation art books are mostly "picture books" that don't really teach anything? It is the most demanding aspect of the arts with the least number of truly proficient people. Imagine Parker saw most rarely, now imagine him attempting to teach finite material. Not possible. That's why he created certain "conceptual" material. Some things are absolute and not open to interpretation. The applications in the book are examples. Thre are no "abstract" takedowns. You either can or can't.
What you must consider, is a separation in your mind between NHB (which is a misnomer by the way) and street grapplers. The ultimate goal in the two are completely different. Competition grapplers are trying to take you down for a lock, pin, or submission. Street grapplers fall into the category I call "Mugger Huggers." On the street he is attempting to momentarily "control" you and/or move you to another location. They may also be attempting to "body slam" you as another measure of limited control in the attack. But remember on the street, the last thing your attacker wants is to be on the ground with you. If he's a robber, being on the ground "locking you up" actually defeats his purpose. If he is a "kidnapper," rapist or other type molester, he's trying to move you to a vehicle or a secluded location. So being on the ground or taking you down again defeats his own purpose on the street. Too often the lines get blurred between the reality of the street, and the goals of competition.
Thank you sir for your input. Might you post again after you have read the article in depth, and perhaps played with some of the things discussed. Perhaps you will have more questions, and I will attempt to do my best to answer them.
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Doc
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #7
Yes that's true, but the debate is misplaced in self-defense, in my opinion. I grew up in the inner city of Los Angeles with street gang preditors aplenty, and as a uniform street cop for many years I've seen my share of street confrontations. Rolling around on the ground is almost non-existent in my expereince, and left mostly for the drunks after the bars and clubs close in the parking lots.
Doc- Thank you very much for the reply! I will definately go back and re-read the article and try the things that you mention. I'll be sure to post any other questions!
Thanks again!
Mike
Thanks again!
Mike
S
Sandor
Guest
Bravo Doc :asian:
I've said that many times myself and based the statement on my own experiences from my days as a bouncer. I look forward to finding a copy of the article and reading through it.
Peace,
Sandor
Doc,
I read the article as you know I (Amrik) came over to see you a few years ago with Mr Kevin Mills (BKKU) and a couple of other guys. We found your class awesome.
Keep up the good work and I hope to train again with you soon.
How about getting over to the UK
I read the article as you know I (Amrik) came over to see you a few years ago with Mr Kevin Mills (BKKU) and a couple of other guys. We found your class awesome.
Keep up the good work and I hope to train again with you soon.
How about getting over to the UK
OP
Doc
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #12
Hey, how you doing? hope everything is well with you. Thanks for the compliment, and I look forward to seeing you again soon when you have more time to jump into class for a few days. Kevin is a great guy and we communicate often. I'd love to come to the UK, all I need is an invite. never been there. the last time I was scheduled to come to Jersey, I had some family things arise and I had to cancel.
I'm working on another article for them now. I usually do one quarterly as a contributing writer.
