Strength vs Technique

[Thor, the Mighty.]

Hey all,
Just posing a question for the grapplers out there.
Do you think strength wins over technique or vice versa?
If so, then why?

My brother asked me this and I thought it was a fair question but wasn't sure of what my answer should be.

Thanks folks.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hey all,
Just posing a question for the grapplers out there.
Do you think strength wins over technique or vice versa?
If so, then why?

My brother asked me this and I thought it was a fair question but wasn't sure of what my answer should be.

Thanks folks.

No good answer; just one you don't want to hear: It depends.

Even perfect technique can be overcome with strength, given unlimited strength. However, most people are not strong enough to overcome perfect technique. So it's down to the people involved, the technique involved and other variables like just plain luck.

Of the two, I'd prefer to have technique, but I also do strength training. Not muscle or body-building, but actual strength training.

And don't discount a third attribute; call it spirit or heart or determination.

 

[mook jong man]

With age strength will eventually wane then all you will be left with will be technique.

 

[Omar B]

Good answer Bill, if I may ad to it. Perfect tech = Perfect power/strength

That is simply, tech delivered with proper form and mechanics harnesses what your body has to the utmost and delivers a lot of power. A strong person throwing a punch might be quite powerful, but a person trained in the mechanics of a punch can deliver an even more powerful punch in a more efficient way.

 

[jks9199]

No good answer; just one you don't want to hear: It depends.

Even perfect technique can be overcome with strength, given unlimited strength. However, most people are not strong enough to overcome perfect technique. So it's down to the people involved, the technique involved and other variables like just plain luck.

Of the two, I'd prefer to have technique, but I also do strength training. Not muscle or body-building, but actual strength training.

And don't discount a third attribute; call it spirit or heart or determination.

Well, there are locks that, once on, are unbreakable unless you want to break the limb. They're technique, not strength dependent -- but they can be beaten by strength before they're locked in.

But the truth is that you're right... strength and technique go hand in hand. Once you have sound principles, your techniques will only be enhanced by being stronger. And you need a certain basic strength level, or all the technique in the world will be ineffective.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Well, there are locks that, once on, are unbreakable unless you want to break the limb. They're technique, not strength dependent -- but they can be beaten by strength before they're locked in.

But the truth is that you're right... strength and technique go hand in hand. Once you have sound principles, your techniques will only be enhanced by being stronger. And you need a certain basic strength level, or all the technique in the world will be ineffective.

I tend to disagree with you... have a 100 pound 13 year old kid get me in the perfect lock, or choke, and I bet I will have little problem escaping it.
I think people with good skills often overlook the importance of attributes such as strength, speed, agility, heart, etc.etc.
and visa versa people with high amounts of those very attributes often times overlook the importance of skill level.
I am getting tired of saying it, and wish Bill would post some absolute nonsense soon so I don't seem like a bill groupy, but I agree with assessment.
I also completely agree with the entire second half of your post here btw.

The guy Marius from Poland who has won the worlds strongest man competition a record number of times has tossed around entering MMA.. I would be extremely interested in how a powerhouse like him would do against some of the better skilled opponents... I imagine it would be similar to Lesnar and how he has been able to demolish so many better skilled opponents with his massivev amount of bulk lol.

 

[MattJ]

Yeah, this is not an either/or question. A massive strength advantage can overwhelm a minor skill advantage, and vice versa. It's better to have a lot of both - one isn't 'better' than other.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Technique makes the most of what you have. Your physical conditioning (including strength training) increases the base of what you have to work with. I recently performed two reps in the full squat w/ 865 lbs. and am fighting in the heavyweight expert division at the NAGA World Championships in Submission Grappling (No-Gi) on Saturday. Hopefully my combo approach to skil and strength will serve me well.

 

[Steve]

Technique makes the most of what you have. Your physical conditioning (including strength training) increases the base of what you have to work with. I recently performed two reps in the full squat w/ 865 lbs. and am fighting in the heavyweight expert division at the NAGA World Championships in Submission Grappling (No-Gi) on Saturday. Hopefully my combo approach to skil and strength will serve me well.

Good luck.

 

[Malleus]

Technique makes the most of what you have. Your physical conditioning (including strength training) increases the base of what you have to work with. I recently performed two reps in the full squat w/ 865 lbs. and am fighting in the heavyweight expert division at the NAGA World Championships in Submission Grappling (No-Gi) on Saturday. Hopefully my combo approach to skil and strength will serve me well.

Best of luck.

I think that as far as technique goes, BJJ is one dicipline that technique can very definitively overpower massive strength advantages. Royce Gracie proved that very definitively in UFC01, beating people who were substantially bigger and heavier than him. Another interesting example using the man himself is here:

. He submits a 6'8", 486lb sumo grand champion despite a horrendous weight disadvantage.

I do think technique matters more to groundfighting than stand-up: as most people are totally helpless on the floor, but even a 4 year old can throw some form of a punch. Learning the right technique can amplify your power, enhance your combinations and shore up your defence, but I don't know if I'd relish fighting someone twice my weight striking, even if they were untrained.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I ended up with the silver medal in the expert no-gi division. As relating to this thread though, The guy who beat me outweighed me by 70 lbs. I came in at 230 (the heavyweight/superheavyweight cut off is 225) and he was a lean and muscular 300 lbs. I am also a former nat'l level strength athlete and recently got a double with 865 lbs in the squat, but this guy was at least as strong and far more experienced in competition. This was my first grappling competition in several years (due to injuries and surgeries) and he was a multiple world champion and he tapped me in 2:38. Normally, though a really good technician, I can use my strength to control the match. Against someone that much bigger, comparably strong and more experienced, I was simply outmatched.

 

[SensibleManiac]

The two go hand in hand, but technique is always more important.

The reason I say this is that there will always be someone stronger than youat one given point, technique is something you can have control over, obviousl this doesn't discount working on your strength.

It's important to realize that strength alone won't cut it. Brock Lesnar has a TON of training and talent. He is an extremely well trained fighter. In his last match against Mir, he not only overpowered him but used superior strategy and TECHNIQUE to trap his head and beat him senseless. That's technique not strength, now If Lesnar relies more on technique than his size to win, what does that tell you?

have a 100 pound 13 year old kid get me in the perfect lock, or choke, and I bet I will have little problem escaping it.

BTW, once the lock would be on, you would end up choked out by a 13 year old girl. And you would not only be unconscious, you would have lost the bet! lol

This much of a size and strength difference would make a huge difference in a fight,but once the lock, and especially choke is on, it's good night.

 

[Andrew Green]

Strength, speed and flexibility are technique multipliers and enablers. If you want to reach a high level you need to develop everything to its fullest.

The important thing is taking what you have (and what you can get) and figuring out how to best use it. Most of us are never going to have Brock Lesnar strength, trying to do things the way he does them isn't going to work.

 

[Ybot]

I always looked at it as strength and technique were two of three factors that will determine how you do in a given match. The third is conditioning. I feel that the person with the strongest combonation of those three factors is usually the winner (though recently I have been considering how much ones mindset effects this too).

If you have exess of one of the three attributes it can counterbalance a dificency in the others.

I do, however, believe that technique is the most important. It is the only one of the 3 factors that has unlimited potential for growth.

 

[5rings]

Technique does somewhat amplify success, but still I've always believed that if two equally trained opponents paired off, the stronger one would win. Especially during ground work somewhere I prefer not to be, given my age, not that I can't defend myself, it's just not in my interest to fight in an area outside of my expertise. It just makes more sense to believe that size and strength play factors in physical confrontation that we cannot honestly ignore. To gather a conclusion as to whether strength overcomes technique would be difficult within the boundaries of competative fighting such as the UFC, at best. But given the fact that such scenarios can change during a street confrontation especially if the person you are trying to restrain is on drugs or mentally unstable which are also factors that play into pain tolerance and fear factor that can raise the anty on the success of any defense, I can say without a doubt that strenght plays a dominating role in any physical confrontation, especially on the ground!
"Always try to think outside the Traditional Box"

 

[Kyosanim]

Hey all,
Just posing a question for the grapplers out there.
Do you think strength wins over technique or vice versa?
If so, then why?

My brother asked me this and I thought it was a fair question but wasn't sure of what my answer should be.

Thanks folks.

I don't do BJJ though I have dabbled in it a bit and really like it so I thought I would poke around the board a bit. In any martial art this question is relevant.
This however is not an easy question. Strength is important no doubt. Without it there would be no technique to begin with as some strength is required to perform any tech. However a person with good tech can beat someone much stronger than they are. So which wins? It depends on if the smaller persons skill level is superior to the larger persons strength.

I have heard it said that martial arts only work if the person your fighting is within 15% larger than you according to base (not extra fat) body mass. Which if true means that strength is more important than many people would have us believe. Its a medium really. If your not strong enough or lack the physical mass to do the tech on someone than all the skill in the world won't save you. You will just have to perform a different tech.The point of skill is to minimize effort and maximize effect or to use as little strength as possible to achieve your goal.
So a good balance of both is probably best though I think that strength is less relevant than body mass. For instance I'm a big guy. I weigh in around 200lbs, but thats because I'm tall. Now against guys who are shorter than me and weigh as much I'm at a strength disadvantage, but my limbs are longer therefore generate more power with circle based attacks. When it comes to mass... well we have the same amount, but mine is not distributed the same.
I'm smaller than they are around. So I can't take as much damage as they can. When I fight smaller guys my mass, reach, and strength all aid me, but I lose when it comes to speed. This got pretty long, but I wanted to throw the third factor in there being as many of BJJ's techs rely on using gravity to your advantage when passing the guard. So having weight on someone can be even more important than strength if you can use it against them, but then they could always have the skill to get around that so really what I'm taking way to long to say is that it's all cyclical.

 

[mcmoon]

i train in bjj and i went to my first tournament a a few months ago...i won my first match and in my second match i went up against a bigger guy and because i had decent technique he wasnt able to pull off a submission but was able to hold me down and win on straight points...so to me if u have a good base plus strength then u can overcome someone smaller with better technique to an extent

i got a video of it so if anyone wants to see it then just let me know

 

[Tanaka]

I would chose technique. I'm a very strong person and I do a lot of conditioning and muscle building. Whenever I randori I notice that if I try to muscle around a lot. I get extremely tired early. Which isn't good if you're in a situation where you might have to handle another guy or something. So most of the time my muscles aren't even coming into play(to large extent). Once you tense up and try to use muscle. Well you obviously are no longer relaxed and you start to require more oxygen. There are rarely times when muscle comes into play(for me). Based off my own experience. This is all my opinion. I try to stay as relaxed as possible and maintain steady breathing. No tensing up and holding my breath.

Now, I do think Body mass is a big factor. Getting hit with more mass behind it, or having someone with a large mass on top of you making it hard to breath. It makes your technique require more technique(because you can't muscle your way with their large weight)

 

[grav3h3art]

If a man has the same size and physical power as you have, even though he does not know MA, he will still be able to fight with you. You will win because you have techniques.

 

[jthomas1600]

As a fight/match goes on in time I think you fatigue both physically and mentally. So your strength and technique 5 minutes in will not be what they were at the beginning. However, in my experience your strength goes before your technique. When I grapple I am frequently stronger than my opponent. I can make a match against an advanced classmate appear fairly even for the first minute or so. But then I start to loose some of my power and explosiveness as the more skilled student breaks me down physically. So if I can power him into a bad position right off the bat I might be OK. Other wise technique usually wins.