Street BJJ

[Hanzou]

If it's one of the folks Hanzou mentioned, yes. Yes, I would. I do BJJ. I've done it for 2 1/2 years... Am a blue belt... And can 100% say that I would stand zero chance against them. You could tie one hand behind their back and they'd still probably beat me.

Yep, I'm not talking about your run of the mill Bjj practitioner, I'm talking about the top guys in the world who specialize from precisely that position. Like Tony said, they'd sit down, take you down, and snap your leg before anyone knew what happened.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I absolutely love what Ryan Hall has done in the TUF house but.... it would be very dangerous for him to ever attempt a roll into a heel hook on the street. Even with his very unique and special skills. It might work but... not high percentage and not really a good street technique.

I disagree with the "not high percentage" portion. If you can take down highly trained athletes and fighters (who usually know how to counter) with that tactic, why wouldn't you be able to take down untrained morons, or overweight meatheads with the exact same tactic

It depends on what you mean by "high-percentage". Could Ryan Hall quickly take down an untrained street fighter and break his leg using the Iminari roll much more often than not? Absolutely! Would it be worth the risk of being entangled and not able to disengage quickly enough when his opponent pulled a knife or his opponent's buddies came running up to stomp his head in? Probably not. Even if the opponent doesn't have a weapon or allies present, Hall's primary attacks from that position mostly involve breaking the leg. If it's not a life or death situation, breaking someone's leg could easily open up some serious legal liability.

Hall knows all this. That's why in that one video of him confronting a belligerent drunk on YouTube he just sticks to basics - taking down the drunk guy and controlling from the top without injuring him.

I could construct a street scenario where this sort of technique might be the best response, but it wouldn't be the most common situation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I agree with most of that except the phrase " it is a ridiculous tournament approach to BJJ". In the context of the rules of competition, it can be a highly effective tactic. It's not something that simulates smart tactics in a street fight. It's not something that the creators of the tournament rules probably envisioned. It is something that some smart people figured out was effective in that particular situation. The top competitors adapt the rules that exist, not to some platonic ideal of what a fight should look like.

It's easy to complain about people "abusing the rules" like that, but really every context for violence (sport or not) has unique details that will be exploited by smart, experienced people. The best tactics for a prison cell extraction by a team of correctional officers are not the best tactics for a teenage girl trying to fend off a date rapist are not the best tactics for two estranged brothers getting into a fist fight at the family reunion and so on and so on. Smart fighters adapt the situation at hand, sport or otherwise.

I utilize the phrase "never say never" and "no absolutes" yet in a street situation this is not a "high percentage" move and very dangerous if you miss! In a tournament playing by tournament rules you may be able to get away with it.

I disagree with the "not high percentage" portion. If you can take down highly trained athletes and fighters (who usually know how to counter) with that tactic, why wouldn't you be able to take down untrained morons, or overweight meatheads with the exact same tactic?

Btw, Hall isn't the only fighter who has made that tactic work in MMA. Check out Tony's vid.

Hanzou, this move has been around a long time. I have done it myself way back in the day but.... I couldn't ever imagine using it in a situation on the street. To risky,way to dangerous and not a "high percentage" move. Just to illustrate how dangerous "pulling guard" itself can be watch last weeks TUF house episode where the European pulled guard and kept going into guard throughout the fight. He was beaten around the ring and frustrated his coaches to no end. Particularly because he was winning the stand up exchange in the first round. That is in a safe padded ring with no obstacles, no multiple opponents, etc. It was a poor decision on his part then but on the street it may well even be a poorer decision. Never underestimate an untrained moron or overweight meathead! That could be a fatal mistake!

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, this move has been around a long time. I have done it myself way back in the day but.... I couldn't ever imagine using it in a situation on the street. To risky,way to dangerous and not a "high percentage" move. Just to illustrate how dangerous "pulling guard" itself can be watch last weeks TUF house episode where the European pulled guard and kept going into guard throughout the fight. He was beaten around the ring and frustrated his coaches to no end. Particularly because he was winning the stand up exchange in the first round.

So are we considering Inamari and Hall's leglock entry attacks to be a "guard pull"? Interesting.

As for "high percentage" doesn't that mean the chances of pulling something off in a given situation? If you have an elite grappler capable of taking trained people down very often with a given technique, wouldn't that occur more often when dealing with individuals who have no idea how to counter a given attack? If Inamari can get that leglock off on a trained, athletic killer, wouldn't he have a higher chance of getting that same leg lock off on someone who has absolutely no idea what he's doing, much less know how to counter what he's doing?

That is in a safe padded ring with no obstacles, no multiple opponents, etc. It was a poor decision on his part then but on the street it may well even be a poorer decision. Never underestimate an untrained moron or overweight meathead! That could be a fatal mistake!

Where did I say that this move would make you impervious to harm, or capable of taking down the entire Manchu army? I simply said that I wouldn't want to fight the elite Bjj guys who specialize from that amusing position. Further I questioned the idea that somehow those guys have a lower chance of pulling off those type of attacks against some drunk assailant, or some untrained meathead, when they can pull off those attacks against highly trained fighters and grapplers.

 

[Hanzou]

It depends on what you mean by "high-percentage". Could Ryan Hall quickly take down an untrained street fighter and break his leg using the Iminari roll much more often than not? Absolutely!

Well that's what *I* mean by high percentage.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well that's what *I* mean by high percentage.

That's why I said it depends on what you mean.

A technique can be "high-percentage" in the sense that you have a high-percent chance of successfully executing it in a fight. That same technique can be "low-percentage" in the sense of being less likely to contribute to a positive outcome in the greater context of surviving the confrontation and going home without a detour in the hospital, courtroom, or morgue.

The Iminari roll entry would be high-percentage (in the first sense) for someone like Iminari or Hall.* It would probably be much lower-percentage (in the second sense) even for those guys in most street situations.

* (Not so much for me. I'm not that talented. )

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So are we considering Inamari and Hall's leglock entry attacks to be a "guard pull"? Interesting.

.

No but interesting that you would try to put words in my mouth to sway the conversation! Butt scooting in an attempt to pull guard would be guard pulling or a variant of it!

Doing a roll into a leg lock would be just that a form of open guard in my opinion. Though we both know there are a lot of variations of this!

Listen, I know you have a fixation with "the guard" and all variants of it. Cool, that is great and there is nothing wrong with it. I have a developed guard game myself. However, I'm not rolling into a leg lock, pulling guard or any variant of it on the street. That is all lower percentage than getting a dominant position such as: back, mount, half mount, crossbody, On top in the half guard, etc.

As to elite level athletes in MMA/BJJ deciding to roll into a leg lock on the street? I wish them luck with it!

 

[drop bear]

Yes, before anyone says it I am sure that the Keenan Cornelius, Ryan Hall, Lucas Leites, Masakazu Imanari would not butt scoot, or roll into a heel hook or knee bar. Not unless they have started to delude themselves.

You see though what you have to understand about the street is there are no rules. So there is no rule against butt scooting because it is the street.

OK now moving on from the silly and the dogma. Here is a trick I have learned from my experience on the street. You find yourself in some weird positions. We know that method of entry works against a standing guy who can punch or kick.

So if somone found yourself on your back they could cripple someone from that position using that tactic.

Yourself and ballen might run away shoot the guy or hope someone intervenes but if you get caught you are going to get your leg broken. You have no defence otherwise. And vague street references would not save you.

Interestingly if you wanted to try the old boot in the head while they are down. That defence would be high percentage.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The old boot to the head is generally a "high percentage" move if you connect!

 

[drop bear]

Nah, running shouldn't be necessary. Just walk walk at a brisk pace.




Here's some clips of the same guy winning fights in the cage using the same move. (You can skip the first 46 seconds get past the seminar footage to the real fights.)

Ryan Hall also just won his first two fights on TUF using the same entry.

I've done BJJ for a whole lot longer than that. I'm a black belt. Any of those guys would crush me just about as easily.

That video. At 1:51 kick slip to butt scooting and leg lock.

04:50. Do you we how fast he pops back on to his feet?

 

[drop bear]

The old boot to the head is generally a "high percentage" move if you connect!

Generally. Which is why a person would get sucked in rather than scrambling for distance.

 

[drop bear]

It depends on what you mean by "high-percentage". Could Ryan Hall quickly take down an untrained street fighter and break his leg using the Iminari roll much more often than not? Absolutely! Would it be worth the risk of being entangled and not able to disengage quickly enough when his opponent pulled a knife or his opponent's buddies came running up to stomp his head in? Probably not. Even if the opponent doesn't have a weapon or allies present, Hall's primary attacks from that position mostly involve breaking the leg. If it's not a life or death situation, breaking someone's leg could easily open up some serious legal liability.

Hall knows all this. That's why in that one video of him confronting a belligerent drunk on YouTube he just sticks to basics - taking down the drunk guy and controlling from the top without injuring him.

I could construct a street scenario where this sort of technique might be the best response, but it wouldn't be the most common situation.

You go to ground if you can handle yourself there and if you can get back up from there. This is the same as any technique. You use a technique you can recover from if it fails.

So if you are a slippery gypsy then trying these rolls anywhere becomes higher percentage because you also have an out as part of your arsenal.

This is the over engendered approach to fighting that exists in the sports mentality. That you don't see in the street mentality.

 

[ballen0351]

Yourself and ballen might run away shoot the guy or hope someone intervenes but if you get caught you are going to get your leg broken. You have no defence otherwise. And vague street references would not save you.

LOL How do you know what defense I have and dont have?

 

[drop bear]

LOL How do you know what defense I have and dont have?

There is no evidence to suggest you are an anti leg lock specialist.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yourself and ballen might run away shoot the guy or hope someone intervenes but if you get caught you are going to get your leg broken. You have no defence otherwise. And vague street references would not save you.

If I am caught. Plus defending against heel hooks, knee bars and leg locks is some thing that I am thoroughly familiar with.

 

[ballen0351]

There is no evidence to suggest you are an anti leg lock specialist.

Why would I be fighting a leg lock specialist?

 

[drop bear]

Why would I be fighting a leg lock specialist?

He kicked someone into your buick.

 

[drop bear]

If I am caught. Plus defending against heel hooks, knee bars and leg locks is some thing that I am thoroughly familiar with.

Well problem is solved. You know the defence to leg locks and can enter them with impunity.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well problem is solved. You know the defence to leg locks and can enter them with impunity.

Now that is funny drop bear!

 

[ballen0351]

He kicked someone into your buick.

no not a good enough reason to fight. I have no doubt one of the professionals that have been listed here will break my leg and there isnt much I can do about it but as I cry in pain ill be dumping 9mm rounds into his body. They are far better trained then I am so I would be justified in defending my life. But the average Joe on the street and part time MMA guy well I'll but my training up against them anytime and I have many times.