Stop crying for teachers

[mj-hi-yah]

Besides being a student, I have never had a lot to do with teachers, so the bulk of emotion in this thread is outside of my realm of experience. Yet, I have 2 things to say.

I could never be a teacher. I have neither the patience, nor the patience to invest myself into that kind of work.

Whoever has the good fortune of being a teacher to my daughter will have the honor of holding my very close counsel, and my utmost respect. We shall become partners toward a common goal wherein I must trust their judgement, and mind their reccommendations.

I shall.:asian:

Dan two things back at ya...you'd make a fine teacher, and your daughter is lucky!:asian:

Sarah...hats off to you too ...

Steve your wife sounds like a great lady! :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

First let me say I think you are you are right that teacher's are not the only ones who value their work, and to me anyone who takes pride in what they do and works hard and with passion is deserving. It's just interesting to me that for some reason teachers' salaries/benefits seem to be more subject to this type of debate. I am a certified teacher in NY and I have to say that rarely have I heard this argument concerning any other profession or seem such scrutiny over the salaries/benefits of other public servants. It's even evidenced here by the fact that the salaries are printed for all to see. In one of the districts I taught in during school budget voting time teachers/administrators salaries were printed on flyers that were put on people's front lawns. I personally have never seen this done to any one else in the public sector. Ask yourself how this would make you feel? I often wonder if it's because most people have children and possibly grandchildren or at least have been to school themselves and have an emotional link to teachers that they do not have to other public servants.

When children fail in school teachers are held accountable, regardless of parental involvement in a child's overall development. There are lots of misconceptions I think. Most of which have been addressed here, and many of which I would have hesitated to argue as a brand new teacher. When I first started out if I found myself in a social setting with new people, especially if they had school aged children, I swear I would hesitate to say that I was a teacher. It seems that almost everyone you meet has at least one complaint about a teacher their child has had not doing their job or being way overpaid or having so many vacations etc.,. ironically to me, rarely did you hear that in some way the parents' shared the responsibility. Sometimes it personally didn't seem worth the confrontations. I worked so hard at my profession and found it exhausting to have to then explain/defend it all to parents, especially to those whose children I'd never taught.

The fact of the matter is teachers like anyone are human beings and some are much better than others. However, in my own experience there have only been a few teachers who did not do their job well, or who rested on their laurels or perhaps should have considered retirement a bit sooner. Most teachers that I know though, and have worked alongside of, are passionate, caring people who are certainly not in it for the money! My plumber, who will never have to pay back a college loan, and who believe me I value, drives a beautiful BMW. I'm quite sure I will never own one of those. The thing is he, like anyone else, has a right to earn a good living why shouldn't a teacher be afforded that same right?

I think the scrutiny reflects a sign of the times we live in as well. I've noticed that when people are getting laid off from their jobs and their 401Ks are dwindling that that seems to be the time these issues arise most or become magnified. Unfortunately our taxes go up every year and in NY anyway federal aid to school districts has been dramatically cut over the years. That has to be made up for somewhere. You just can't blame teachers for hard times or taxes. We don't make the laws or drive the economy - we are also subject to hard times and lay offs and must also pay our taxes as well.

There just are so many things that are misunderstood concerning teachers and the work that they do. My first job was in a private school and paid me less than $14,000 a year. It was the best job I've ever had! I loved the children, I worked there for four years, and had 24 children in my care and probably spent almost $500 that year on supplies for the classroom. I worked very hard there cleaning and preparing. Most days I would put in three to six extra hours in my preparation, and often would get up in the middle of the night to act on an idea for the next day. It was about opening young minds and touching lives. The school was forced to close because they could not afford to stay open. The cost of living in NY is very high, and I could not afford much of anything on that salary, but I would have stayed if the doors were open. When I got my first public school job, aside from being put through a very stressful selection process just to get the job, I accepted less than the offered salary. Teaching is a noble profession, and speaking for myself financial gain is not the targeted reward!:asian:

What she said.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

What she said.

:wavey: :lol: :cheers:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

To Chuck, lokio9789, and all other teachers, and spouses who are teachers, here in this forum :asian: :cheers:

 

[MisterMike]

You got that right.

MisterMike wrote:

Teachers are underpaid.

And yes, for those who know me here, she's on the other end of my political spectrum. Who says opposites don't attract Someone's gotta keep my in check.


THANK YOU, Mister Mike. I never thought we'd find anything to which we'd agree, but this may be it.

My compliments to your wife. Sounds like you two got a James Carville/Mary Matelin thing going...with the roles reversed, of course.


Regards,

Steve

LOL..Imagine that!! Of course I'd like to see more private schools pop up.

Oh, and a beer for you and Mr. Edwards too :cheers:

 

[shesulsa]

Teaching is a lot like motherhood, janitoring, housekeeping, customer service, repair service, selling, nursing, waitressing/serving, hosting, flight-attending, coaching, landscaping, plumbing, construction, caring for children/elderly/handicapped, etcetera.

They are all very thankless jobs. We expect only the top notch performance from all with extra performance on the side with inadequate compensation. And when we get the bill, we scream and rant and rave.

In case y'all didn't know, most of the money in a school's budget goes to salary funding - and administrators make a ton of money. Does anyone here know how much the superintendant of schools in your district makes? I'm pretty sure that ours is the highest paid in the state of Washington. And his decisions are disappointing.

The teachers in our district arrive at least an hour before school starts, stay later and take work home to complete. There are far more demands today on teacher who also must include special needs kids in their classrooms. The lack of respect for teachers is spreading to our youth and this is degenerating the education system of today.

Just my .02.

 

[pete]

wow, learned a lot from this thread... like:

how teachers suddenly have cornered the market on job-related stress, responsibility, and direct impact on people
how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs
how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder
how nobody else has to continually retrain, retool, and readjust to changes in best practices, technology, and shifting paradigms
how lack of respect applies only to those in academia
how paid time off for professional development and emotional recharging should not considered time off
how easy it is to hand over the administrators as the villans, just like lawyers and insurance co's
how no other professionals are expected to work overtime, weekends, take work home, change personal plans, and so on...
how public information, like salaries, are thought to be of nobody's business unless its athletes or movie stars (which are incidentally at least partly responsible for rising costs of cable television)
how people whose jobs are being routinely moved overseas can't experience the same level of stress

now, i don't begrudge anyone from earning a living... everybody's gotta eat.
and i do appreciate what most teachers have done for my kids

but, fact is that many teachers have never worked in the private sector, going from student to teacher, and those that have are typically grateful for the benefits associated with their new career. a good gig if you can get it.

so i guess i can agree with phoenix44 statement "stop crying for teachers", but i don't think teachers are crying for themselves either...

pete

 

[don bohrer]

Teaching is a mixed bag for sure. I don't every recall my teacher friends complaining about salary. I did hear many complaints about the willingness of the administration to back the kids and parents over the teachers. The TASP was also another major concern. Most felt TASP along with lack of support from the administration tied their hands and made teaching incredibly difficult.

Don (El Paso)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

wow, learned a lot from this thread... like:

how teachers suddenly have cornered the market on job-related stress, responsibility, and direct impact on people

Who said they cornered those markets? Nobody.

how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs

Not one of the five living teachers in my family have tenure, nor can get it. My wife has been layed off before...and not because of poor performance.

how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder

Nobody claimed that, either.

how nobody else has to continually retrain, retool, and readjust to changes in best practices, technology, and shifting paradigms

Nobody claimed that, either.

how lack of respect applies only to those in academia

Nobody claimed that, either.

I'll snip the next part. Its just more of the same bunk.

Pete, you need some serious adjustment to your reasoning skills. You drew silly little generalizations from various topics in the thread, and your arguments-posed as "lessons"- are full of syllogistic errors.

Nowhere did anybody say, for example, that teachers cornered the job market on stress. That was your conclusion, one you know to be incorrect and one you know WE find incorrect. You inserted your own premises and drew your own conclusions. Your comments were snippy and snide.

You didn't learn anything from the thread. And you certainly didn't discern how deeply insulting a post like yours could be to the teachers and spouses of teachers here at martial talk.

Regards,


Steve

 

[pete]

Pete, you need some serious adjustment to your reasoning skills. You drew silly little generalizations from various topics in the thread, and your arguments-posed as "lessons"- are full of syllogistic errors.

sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.

You didn't learn anything from the thread. And you certainly didn't discern how deeply insulting a post like yours could be to the teachers and spouses of teachers here at martial talk.

it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective. teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy. it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.

 

[loki09789]

sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.



it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective. teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy. it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.

The starting thread was about teachers, the responses were about teachers. There has not been a single thread that deviated the topic into a 'teachers have it worse than any one else' idea. There have even been some mentions of acknowledgement that there are other jobs that are meaningful and stressful as well.

Putting thread in perspective is not needed because 'relative comparison' was never the goal or purpose of the discussion.

THere are many 'non teachers' who have posted here on either side of the topic. I think perspective is there.

Now if you want to start a thread that makes a relative comparison of teaching and other professions based on a criteria list then go for it.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs

This is just another example of the many misconceptions about teachers. Tenure does not guarantee a teacher a job. If enrollment is low and there are not enough children to teach, or school budgets are not passed, causing larger class size, tenured teachers will, and do lose their jobs. Like all professions, the state of the economy influences the employment of teachers.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

sorry you couldn't look at it more objectively... didn't mean to strike a nerve.



it shouldn't be taken as insulting to anyone, just put into perspective. teachers are far from alone in the unpleasantries brough upon working people in our current economy. it would be insulting to non-teachers to think otherwise.

Pete,

I think people are well aware that teachers aren't at the bottom of the barrel as far as unpleasant jobs go. I seriously doubt that anybody would argue that. If you want to post a thread on America's cruddiest jobs, that might be an interesting topic. Teachers might not rank anywhere on that list. I wouldn't suggest they ought to...but I would suggest, given the importance of their job...that their salaries and benefits should be higher so as to attract more talent to the field.

The Jobs Rated Almanac rates being a teacher as being lower than that of being a teacher's aid, a maid, or a janitor. Men typically don't enter the field because its perceived they can't support a family on the money offered. Texas has such low pay that their turnover rate for teachers is ridiculous:

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/new...To.Attract.Retain.Texas.Teachers-694017.shtml

-----

If I showed your post to my wife, her mother, my sisters and brothers-in-law, (and I can, if you like), they'd take serious offense. It raises my hackles because I see and hear what my wife deals with as a middle school teacher. You bet you struck a nerve.

Again, I re-emphasize, whatever experiences you and others might have with teachers in New York, remember that elsewhere it is different.


Regards,


Steve

 

[OULobo]

I unserstand and to some extent agree with Pete on most of this, so please allow me to snipe the one I don't agree with.

how even with tenured positions making dismissal for poor performance virtually impossible, there is concern of layoffs

how teachers are unique in obtaining a costly education, starting out with a low paying job, and working up the ladder

how easy it is to hand over the administrators as the villans, just like lawyers and insurance co's

As mj-hi-yah stated tenure doesn't gaurentee(sp) a teacher from a lay off and tenure isn't offered for all teaching positions.

Teachers start at the lowest paying of college degree jobs and their pay is increased at scale that is lower than most other jobs that require a degree. They also have an unusual amount of competition for a higher level aministration job and precious few of those jobs to compete for. Essentially it's a shorter ladder with very small rungs and a huge crowd trying to climb the same one.

Administrators do half the work for twice the pay. Essentially, they are coasting on past accomplishments. I won't comment on lawers and insurance companies, as I am not fond of either.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I love the whole, "You're a moron, and essentially dishonest!!....but I didn't mean anything OFFENSIVE!!! line of argument."

The reasons teachers are attacked include:

1. A general right-wing and fundamentalist Christian attack upon educators, and the nature of education, which comes out of a dislike for secular society in the modern era.

2. A general dismay at the fact that Things Cost Money, especially in the case of professions like teaching, which used to be subsidized by the grossly underpaid work of large numbers of women.

3. A general refusal to recognize the fact that teachers are still paid on the cheap, because this would mean looking at the real sources of waste and expense in our society.

4. A general misplaced anger about teachers receiving benefits, retirement packages, etc., often because of unions, while the rational response would be to demand these things for other professions too.

5. A general dislike of the way that one of the more educated and intelligent sections of our society tends to ask inconvenient questions. In other words, a general fear and hatred directed towards intellectuals.

6. A general sense that education is indeed a major ideological battleground.

7. A general refusal to face up to the contradictions between capitalism and the principles of real education, often handled by all these silly demands for "more efficiency." Education also tends to lead people to recognize that life is not all about grubbing money and buying crap--not a convenient recognition.

8. A general sense that, "they--" for which read, "minorities," and "working people--" might get some book-learnin' and start rocking the boat.

9. A jealousy about being educated, enacted often by people who themselves got screwed, and cannot face that reality.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

5. A general dislike of the way that one of the more educated and intelligent sections of our society tends to ask inconvenient questions. In other words, a general fear and hatred directed towards intellectuals.

9. A jealousy about being educated, enacted often by people who themselves got screwed, and cannot face that reality.

I've seen this in the college town I live in. People who never took their education past high school often resent those who have earned degrees. This can cause a lot of tension between teachers and parents.

On the other hand, I've seen PhD's get arrogant and snotty with teachers due to the latter's degree in Education. It seems no teacher is worthy of their gifted little gem.


Regards,


Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, I forgot:

10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."

11. A quite-correct class resentment, based upon the fact that in the end, the, "intelligentsia," is supported by the labor of workers. Regrettably, this resentiment usually does not reach the level of analysis.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."

This is true, although it makes me sad when I see a PhD or PhD student pull out their credentials/inner snottiness to make a student or someone else outside of academia (i.e. a waiter) feel crappy. I haven't seen it very often, but when I have, I've been embarrassed. No need to feed into a stereotype, and it's rude.

That is vastly different from the actual intellectual arguments which usually are not snotty, although they can get personal.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I absolutely HAVE to say something about teachers or I'm going to explode, and I'll take the risk of being flamed.

Let's take, without argument, the crappiest place in the country to teach: New York City. The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov) Teachers work 180 days/per year. They work 8:30 am - 3 pm. They get an hour for lunch. That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day. (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")

That means their base pay is: $47.82/hr. Not bad. BUT, they also get:

• Family health insurance
• Family dental
• Family eyeglasses
• Family prescription drug benefit
• Pension plan (they can retire in their 50s)
• Sick time
• Vacation time
• Paid time for jury duty
• Personal time
• Periodic sabbaticals on partial pay
• Summers off
• Legal holidays off
• School holidays

Their pay checks and benefits are annualized, so they're covered over the summers. They can always be home when their kids are off, so babysitting costs are minimal. AND---THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT---their benefits continue into their retirement!!!

Now, let's figure this out: If teachers worked a 7 hour day AND they worked year round 5 days a week, and if they got 2 weeks UNPAID vacation, and if they got UNPAID legal holidays off (so let's figure they worked 48 weeks) JUST LIKE THE REST OF US, their base salary would be $80,337. DO YOU MAKE $80K??? Because that ain't bad. Do YOU get to retire at 55, with full benefits, and pension? Do you get the best benefits in the universe? Do YOU get sabbaticals? Because I don't.

If they need to earn more money, they can tutor (and they do) for $75/hr, at their convenience. Or coach, and make overtime. Or be a camp counselor in the summer, so their kids go free. And if they work in the burbs, and not in NYC, they can earn a median $75,000/yr--that's a base pay of $75/hr, or a potential nice 6-figure annual income if they worked the regular working stiff's hours--and I'm not even talking about those who work SIX days/week. Plus bennies.

Yes they have an important job--so does the sanitation worker. Yes, there's stress on their job--but most of us can handle 5.5 hours of stress for half a year. Yes they take work home with them...so does everyone else. Teachers' unions have done a great spin job making teachers seem poor and beleaguered.

So please PLEASE stop crying for the teachers.

Phoenix,
I'm sure you've been 'flamed' elsewhere in this thread, which I haven't read as yet, but I feel compelled to respond. Firstly, I have no idea of where you live, but obviously not in NYC. You omitted the important fact that NO ONE WANTS TO TEACH IN THE NYC PUBLIC SCHOOLS. (not shouting - emphasis added.) Why? There's no 'combat pay' -- and I'm not joking when I say that. There are metal detectors in practically every public school in the city - with good reason. Teachers often are busier breaking up fights, both in the classroom and hallways between periods, than teaching. They are parent, psychiatrist, and who knows what else to these kids, who may have only one parent at home, working two to three jobs to make ends meet. Their REGULAR hours are probably as you stated. What about those who are there at 7 am to meet with parents or to give kids extra help (no $75 per hour for that) - and who stay late for the same reasons? I could go on, but really. I enjoy your posts most of the time, but I think you're a bit off-base here. Now to read what everyone else has said. KT

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Oh, I forgot:

10. A culturally-acquired tendency to define any and all disagreement/analysis as, "arrogant and snotty."

11. A quite-correct class resentment, based upon the fact that in the end, the, "intelligentsia," is supported by the labor of workers. Regrettably, this resentiment usually does not reach the level of analysis.

Where did I say that ALL disagreements I observed were "arrogant and snotty?" I've also seen academics treat teachers with respect. You were referring to my post, were you not?

Regards,


Steve