Stop crying for teachers

[Phoenix44]

I absolutely HAVE to say something about teachers or I'm going to explode, and I'll take the risk of being flamed.

Let's take, without argument, the crappiest place in the country to teach: New York City. The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov) Teachers work 180 days/per year. They work 8:30 am - 3 pm. They get an hour for lunch. That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day. (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")

That means their base pay is: $47.82/hr. Not bad. BUT, they also get:

• Family health insurance
• Family dental
• Family eyeglasses
• Family prescription drug benefit
• Pension plan (they can retire in their 50s)
• Sick time
• Vacation time
• Paid time for jury duty
• Personal time
• Periodic sabbaticals on partial pay
• Summers off
• Legal holidays off
• School holidays

Their pay checks and benefits are annualized, so they're covered over the summers. They can always be home when their kids are off, so babysitting costs are minimal. AND---THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT---their benefits continue into their retirement!!!

Now, let's figure this out: If teachers worked a 7 hour day AND they worked year round 5 days a week, and if they got 2 weeks UNPAID vacation, and if they got UNPAID legal holidays off (so let's figure they worked 48 weeks) JUST LIKE THE REST OF US, their base salary would be $80,337. DO YOU MAKE $80K??? Because that ain't bad. Do YOU get to retire at 55, with full benefits, and pension? Do you get the best benefits in the universe? Do YOU get sabbaticals? Because I don't.

If they need to earn more money, they can tutor (and they do) for $75/hr, at their convenience. Or coach, and make overtime. Or be a camp counselor in the summer, so their kids go free. And if they work in the burbs, and not in NYC, they can earn a median $75,000/yr--that's a base pay of $75/hr, or a potential nice 6-figure annual income if they worked the regular working stiff's hours--and I'm not even talking about those who work SIX days/week. Plus bennies.

Yes they have an important job--so does the sanitation worker. Yes, there's stress on their job--but most of us can handle 5.5 hours of stress for half a year. Yes they take work home with them...so does everyone else. Teachers' unions have done a great spin job making teachers seem poor and beleaguered.

So please PLEASE stop crying for the teachers.

 

[Andrew Green]

That means they're working 5.5 hours per day--not a bad work day. (BTW, they also get 2 "prep" periods, where they're not actually teaching, and where they may leave the building--and I know for a FACT that they do--but I'm going to assume they're actually "prepping")

umm... 5.5 hours a day huh?

Ok, a few of the lazy crappy teachers maybe.

But there is a lot of prep work that goes into teaching. How about intermurals, lunch supervision, after school clubs?

And do you have any idea how hard it is to handle 25 young kids for that long?

Yes, some teachers are overpaid, and really shouldn't be teaching. But a good teacher is worth far more then anything they can be paid.

I'm the first to agree that our educational system is a mess, and that a lot of the teachers out there have no business teaching. But if you want good teachers you got to pay for them, or they will go and make more doing something else.

 

[Phoenix44]

umm... 5.5 hours a day huh?
Ok, a few of the lazy crappy teachers maybe.

Not so. I'm talking about "the time they are required to be at their place of employment." Laziness or crappiness has nothing to do with it.

How about intermurals, lunch supervision, after school clubs?

They get paid overtime for clubs and teams. And in NYC teachers do not supervise lunch--school aides do that. OMG the teachers' union would go ballistic! As for "prep" time, as I said, we ALL take work home with us. The difference is that teachers also get paid prep time...their two prep periods are part of the 5.5 hours.

And do you have any idea how hard it is to handle 25 young kids for that long?

As a matter of fact, yes. Many of us are martial arts instructors. We just don't get paid $45/hr.

 

[Lisa]

They get paid overtime for clubs and teams. And in NYC teachers do not supervise lunch--school aides do that. OMG the teachers' union would go ballistic! As for "prep" time, as I said, we ALL take work home with us. The difference is that teachers also get paid prep time...their two prep periods are part of the 5.5 hours.

I guess things are different in NYC then they are in Canada. No teacher here get paid overtime for extracirricular activities, but it is EXPECTED that they participate in it. They are also expected to supervise the play ground on a rotating basis during lunch and on recess time. They only get one prep time per day here. I have known teachers that are teaching multiple grades and multiple languages and still getting paid the same as some teachers teaching one grade and one language. A good friend of mine had close to 60 report cards to prepare due to a multiage, multilanguage program she taught and she only made $40K per year (Cdn).

 

[Andrew Green]

As a matter of fact, yes. Many of us are martial arts instructors. We just don't get paid $45/hr.

So am I, and I can tell you that it is completely different to teach a group of kids a hobby that they want to do for an hour at a time then to have a group of kids that would rather be somewhere else for a whole day.

Thats like comparing running a marathon to running a block and a half to the bus stop...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You left out a few things....
Teachers are often reqired to supply their own classroom supplies.
That means paper, pens, pencils, craft materials, etc.
My girlfriends grandmother was a Buffalo teacher for years...they gave her squat for an annual budget to stock her classroom each year for the kids. (She taught kindergarden and 1st I believe)

You may want to read these too :
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cityscape/2002/teacher.asp
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00391.html

 

[Tgace]

Just some ??'s

Cost of living in NYC vs. income?

Take home work like paper correction, grading, class planning etc. and the wage breakdown with that factored in.

Consistency of your wage model with the various teachers unions nationwide.

 

[Phoenix44]

Listen folks, don't miss my point. I'm not saying teachers don't have an important job, or that they don't deserve a decent salary. In fact, where I live, we pay teachers even more than in NYC, and consequently, our taxes are VERY high. But we pass the school budget EVERY year.

However, by comparison to everyone else:

The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job.
The nurse or doctor works WAY more hours, with more immediate consequences.
The firefighter has a more dangerous job.

Yes, public school teachers absolutely do deserve a decent salary. My point is, they GET a decent salary, and better benefits and job security than just about anyone else. So give them credit for their important work...but stop the whining.

 

[Tgace]

Around here, I think most of the whining is about school budgets and expired contracts rather than how much money they make.

OTOH look at how much sports figures make for playing ball or actors make for reading other peoples writing. While we pay our soldiers dirt wages.

 

[bdparsons]

The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job.

You've GOT to be kidding me! But I do agree with you, stop the whining, beginning with yourself.

If you're so upset about it, give it a try. BTW, I'm not a teacher.

Bill Parsons

 

[RCastillo]

Time for a new lesson, sit down and take a few notes. Texas Education 101

*We rank 30th in the nation, pay wise.

* We cannot collect Social Security, just our pension, but Congressman can, and then some, AND their pensions, it's astronomical! I wish we could vote ourselves pay raises like they do.

* We have NO collective bargianing here with our Unions. We're considered "servants of the State. (Yeah, right)

*Many of us work summers, and work extra jobs durring the year.(I do on both counts, and get screwed for it by Uncle Sam)

*Here, if you're accused of a crime, you're considered guilty first, gotta prove it if you're innocent.(Not this boy. I use the law on them like they'd use it on me) Ya gotta play hardball, and I'd rather not


*We get raked over the coals when it comes to Health Ins.

*Some of our legislators, and the Gov. are clueless when it comes to education.

*Parents/students at times have the upper hand because they wanna sue, and think they got ya spooked. (Unless you're a radical like me, I don't scare easy. This old man has gotten smart)

This state is desperate for teachers now, so all you gotta have is a degree now, and get in the easy way. We had to eat crap along the way.

In summation, if you're successful in some sort of way, THANK A TEACHER, because even one, somewhere along the line, made a difference for you in life. (No , I didn't create the system either)

 

[Phoenix44]

If you're so upset about it, give it a try.

Perhaps I already have. Or perhaps half my family is made up of teachers. Or maybe I work in the schools in another capacity.

In fact, my father is a retired NYC school teacher. He's been retired on a pension and full benefits for 25 years. God bless him. Most of the rest of us won't be able to retire well, if at all.

You've GOT to be kidding me! But I do agree with you, stop the whining, beginning with yourself.

Thanks so much, bdparsons, for your civil attitude toward me. I may disagree with people, but I don't make it personal. I simply quoted the facts, and I'm honestly surprised that so many people think that an annualized, full-time salary upwards of $80K, plus fantastic benefits, is so paltry. Guess the teachers' unions have done their job.

 

[michaeledward]

...
The median teachers' salary is $47,345. (From NYC.gov) ,
...
their base salary would be $80,337.

I'm confused. Which is it?

I am thinking that if I talk to some New York City Educators, they are going to tell me their base salary is no where near 80 grand a year.

Maybe you should have some more conversations with your father. Did he teach math?

 

[Cruentus]

2 things...

#1. Don't say retarded, unresearched things like "because of teachers salaries, our taxes our high." It just makes you sound uninformed.

#2. Instead of b**tching about the wage that someone else with an important job has, we should be talking about other things like improving the living wage accross the board, or even (gasp) making health care and retirement a priority in this country. I think it is ironic to argue over teachers salaries when no-talent a$$clowns can do things like run large companies, rake in millions hand over fist at our expense, or even get elected for president, all because of who there parents are and how well elitists can fix the competition for their buddies.

I think first things first, and if one is fustrated over teacher salaries, then I feel that one is fusterated over the wrong things.

My 2 cents...

carry on

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks...keep it polite please.

I've talked to some teachers...some get a nice paycheck. Some don't.

I'm not certain, but I think the starting pay is in the $20k-$30k range here. Not a bad paycheck, but when you factor in buying your own supplies, taking work home with you (to prepare lesson plans, grade papers, etc), 3 months without pay (It's often lumped during the school year and not paid in the 'off' season), it can be rough.

Some parts of the country, theres a demand and teachers can get top dollar.
In others...it's a buyers market and pay and bennis are low.

 

[don bohrer]

Knowing at least a dozen teachers, and my best friend being one I strongly disagree with you Phoenix44.


Don (El Paso)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

The minimum wage burger flipper has a more stressful job.

Please insert a common expletive referring to kaki doodie here. Have you ever spent any time in a room full of seventh graders? This is somewhat akin to herding cats, with an added mission statement of trying to make them literate.

That has to be the most mindless comment I've seen on this forum in a month.

Yes, public school teachers absolutely do deserve a decent salary. My point is, they GET a decent salary, and better benefits and job security than just about anyone else. So give them credit for their important work...but stop the whining.

Since when is American education monolithic? Do you assume that the salary and hours you list apply to all teachers across fifty states? You'll recall that I posted that teachers without collective bargaining make 63% LESS than teachers that do.

Are you prepared to tell me how many hours my wife and sisters work outside the classroom doing prep work and grading? How many extra-curricular events were they expected to attend, unpaid? Do they make $47.82 an hour? How about their benefits? How much did my wife spend of her own money on classroom supplies last year? How many books has she purchased for promising students? How many of the VCR's in her classroom belong to her? How much did she spend on her state mandated Master's degree?

Visit an inner city school in Indianapolis or Gary. After getting screened to make sure you don't have a gun or knife, walk into the classrooms and tell the teachers there they make too much money and that working with the blossoming felons of our fair state is less stressful than flipping burgers.

RCastillo...my sister and husband teach in Texas. Thanks for the info. My other sister and brother in law teach in Idaho. They're ranked 31st, just behind Texas. Indiana is ranked 17th and we're still below the national average. Note folks that if the seventeenth ranked state is below average, we have a fairly large disparity of salaries for teachers in this country.

US Teacher Salaries

http://resource.educationamerica.net/salaries.html


Regards,

Steve

 

[loki09789]

Also consider that teaching is a licensed profession and that you are required to have a degree, maintain continuous 'in service' and pursue graduate degrees in order to keep that license.

Rember too that relative to other licensed professions with similar educational/internship/inservice requirements teachers make roughly 30% less than their professional counterparts from other professions.

That correlates, at least to me, to that 30% of the year that teachers have 'off' - even though I am going to be in my class room retooling/reorganizing it for the next year on my "off" time.... there is no 'off time' as far as I am concerned. I will be pouring over material, writing lessons/units for the next years schedule - which might be a totally different schedule from the year before at times, so I have to plan from scratch or collaborate with my peers to figure out what to do.

There is only different phases/times devoted to prepare, execute, reflect or recharge....am I to be criticized or ridiculed for that? I didn't complain when my father got a paid 2 week shut down (AND still got paid vacation time to boot) at Christmas and 4th of July, or paid 13.00 or WAY more for what he called "monkey work" at a Ford stamping plant.

I didn't roll my eyes or throw my hands up because I "just had to say something" about how he was considered "skilled trade" when all he did was roll huge die molds into place with a crane and tighten a few bolts and getting paid upward of 20 an hours for that while I was working there part time for far less (oh yeah 12.35 starting) than him and working a lot harder during my shift than he had to work.

An interesting model called Frameworks breaks teaching down into four major categories or domains:

1. Planning and preparation
2.Classroom
3.Instruction
4.Professional responsibilities: (reflecting on teaching, records, interaction with families/faculty/administration/community, GROWING PROFESSIONALLY, contributing to the school district - peer/student advisement, curriculum, PTA contributions....)

I would say that your work hour break down only really recognizes #2 and #3 of the four domains and doesn't recognize the significance that preparation hours can have or the importance that out of classroom hours devoted to improving yourself as a person/professional and the community you teach in can be - including calls to parents from home phones, evening paper grading, summer curriculum development projects,sports coaching, group advisor duties.... some do this for no extra pay. If it is paid usually it is a flat per diem/percentage of your base pay - REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG IT TAKES.

Are teachers over paid? I don't know if a blanket/bigotted judgement can be made by only looking at NYC wage means is a fair assessment of "all teachers."

I would say there is a societal problem of who is over paid/overcompensated when civil servants - whether doctors at county hospitals, LEO, EMS, teachers, road maintenance..... have to catch flak for the wages they/we earn by the tax payers who "pay our wages" for valuable and quality of life sustaining services

YET

these very same people will gladly pay near to $100.00 per month for internet/cable access purely for entertainment, season ticket prices purely for enternainment, and millions of dollars at restaurant food that they could prepare at home just as well if not better if they took the time to do it (and I do most/all the cooking in my house so no male bashing please) with no or little thought about what they are getting in return for their investment.

If money is the measure of what people value in this country: Entertainment and food win out over all else.

 

[Phoenix44]

I'm confused. Which is it?

I am thinking that if I talk to some New York City Educators, they are going to tell me their base salary is no where near 80 grand a year.

Maybe you should have some more conversations with your father. Did he teach math?

OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working 5.5 hours per day 180 days per year in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked 7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks, as most full time workers do, that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours.

By the way, this is my last post to this thread. I quoted facts and figures, and gave my opinion about those facts and figures, which some of you disagree with, as you have every right to--that's what makes for lively discussion. However, I never made personal cracks directed at individuals, as some of you think is appropriate to direct at me. I don't appreciate it, especially since you people don't even know me. It lowers the level of discourse; makes the originator of the personal comments look small and foolish; and based on the moderators' comments, it is not the intent of this board.

 

[michaeledward]

OK, let me repeat what I said. Teachers earn a base salary of $47K for working 5.5 hours per day 180 days per year in their workplace. If they earned the same hourly rate, but worked 7 hours/day, 5 days/week, for 48 weeks, as most full time workers do, that would be equivalent to a base salary of >$80K--a very nice full time salary--plus benefits. Most workers earn more money when they work more hours.

However, teachers don't work 7 hours a day, 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year. That is not the way the job is scheduled. To blame the teacher for the design of the system is to confuse two seperate arguments.

While "Most workers earn more money when they work more hours", most workers don't get to choose how many hours they work. For instance, workers at FedEx depots, and UPS depots, have to sort packages for three to four hours a night. Keeping these employees working for an additional 4 hours, because most workes work 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, is a foolish idea, don't you think?

If you want to rail against the 180 day school year, Great! It is an outdated idea that, if continued, will cause the United States to fall further and further behind other developed countries in what has been our strongest attribute; education. But that arguement is distinct from the compensation discussion.

Teachers are paid 47 grand a year (median income in NY according to your post) for working for the school year. It is not an hourly wage.

Mike