step thru punch defence

Drag'n

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I know Kenpo has a rep of being a practical SD system. But after seeing a few of the kenpo vids on this forum and others, theres something that bothers me. Its the use of boldy telegraphed step thru or lunging reverse punches used in the punch defence clips.
Where the attacker steps forward with his right foot to punch with his right hand. TMA have a bunch of moves to deal with this kind of attack, but in my experience its just not a very realistic type of attack. Generally its only novice martial artists who will attack with a punch like this because they've been taught to punch that way. If you ask any average guy to throw a punch at you, its more likely hes gonna throw a straight punch from his rear hand without stepping, more like a boxers cross or a wild hook from the rear hand. Which makes alot of those highly polished defense combos practically worthless.
The other thing that bothers me is how the attacker just stands there and lets the defender throw a 5 or 6 (or more) move combo! C'mon, youre lucky if you can get a 3 or 4 move combo off. And nobody is gonna stand there with his arm out while you block step counter............Generally as soon as you block a punch hes pulling his arm back and theres another one comming from his other hand .Every little movement you make is going to cause a reactionary movement of somekind from your opponent. Long flowing defence combos just aren't realistic.
Now I'm not trying to put down Kenpo here.These are issues that really bothered me when I was doing TMA.I'm just interested in whether other TMArtists do consider these things and what they do about it.
I expect to get some replies along the lines of "we're practising concepts with these techs".Fair enough. But I beleive concepts should fit with reality.
Practise concepts against realistic attacks.
Agreements? Arguments? please.......
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Drag'n said:
I know Kenpo has a rep of being a practical SD system. But after seeing a few of the kenpo vids on this forum and others, theres something that bothers me. Its the use of boldy telegraphed step thru or lunging reverse punches used in the punch defence clips.
Where the attacker steps forward with his right foot to punch with his right hand. TMA have a bunch of moves to deal with this kind of attack, but in my experience its just not a very realistic type of attack. Generally its only novice martial artists who will attack with a punch like this because they've been taught to punch that way. If you ask any average guy to throw a punch at you, its more likely hes gonna throw a straight punch from his rear hand without stepping, more like a boxers cross or a wild hook from the rear hand. Which makes alot of those highly polished defense combos practically worthless.
The other thing that bothers me is how the attacker just stands there and lets the defender throw a 5 or 6 (or more) move combo! C'mon, youre lucky if you can get a 3 or 4 move combo off. And nobody is gonna stand there with his arm out while you block step counter............Generally as soon as you block a punch hes pulling his arm back and theres another one comming from his other hand .Every little movement you make is going to cause a reactionary movement of somekind from your opponent. Long flowing defence combos just aren't realistic.
Now I'm not trying to put down Kenpo here.These are issues that really bothered me when I was doing TMA.I'm just interested in whether other TMArtists do consider these things and what they do about it.
I expect to get some replies along the lines of "we're practising concepts with these techs".Fair enough. But I beleive concepts should fit with reality.
Practise concepts against realistic attacks.
Agreements? Arguments? please.......
What's the point of arguing, you've made your point ,debate maybe?

The question should be, who among us have been in an altercation where the opponent used either and those techniques we learned still worked?

DarK LorD
 
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kenpo tiger

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Drag'n, I think maybe you are looking at something without having an understanding of kenpo. Yes, we do techniques (you said, I believe, fancy combinations) of 4, 5, 6 or more strikes, but what you don't seem to understand is that each technique is a 'what if' scenario. Kenpoists use any or all of those separate skills contained in each technique depending upon the situation. Kenpo techniques are ideas, and the art adapts to the practitioner. I've trained in other arts, including tkd, and I find kenpo to be the most practical for that very reason.

We are constantly accused of *not following the rules* in an altercation (i.e., eye gouging, groin shots and so on.) As I see it, the rules are: first try to walk away from the fight and then fight only if it is your last resort.

As Mr. O'Briant pointed out, this post is for furthering discussion, not argument. After all, we all do the MA we do because we think it's best for us, don't we?
 

MJS

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Drag'n said:
I know Kenpo has a rep of being a practical SD system. But after seeing a few of the kenpo vids on this forum and others, theres something that bothers me. Its the use of boldy telegraphed step thru or lunging reverse punches used in the punch defence clips.
Where the attacker steps forward with his right foot to punch with his right hand. TMA have a bunch of moves to deal with this kind of attack, but in my experience its just not a very realistic type of attack. Generally its only novice martial artists who will attack with a punch like this because they've been taught to punch that way. If you ask any average guy to throw a punch at you, its more likely hes gonna throw a straight punch from his rear hand without stepping, more like a boxers cross or a wild hook from the rear hand. Which makes alot of those highly polished defense combos practically worthless.
The other thing that bothers me is how the attacker just stands there and lets the defender throw a 5 or 6 (or more) move combo! C'mon, youre lucky if you can get a 3 or 4 move combo off. And nobody is gonna stand there with his arm out while you block step counter............Generally as soon as you block a punch hes pulling his arm back and theres another one comming from his other hand .Every little movement you make is going to cause a reactionary movement of somekind from your opponent. Long flowing defence combos just aren't realistic.
Now I'm not trying to put down Kenpo here.These are issues that really bothered me when I was doing TMA.I'm just interested in whether other TMArtists do consider these things and what they do about it.
I expect to get some replies along the lines of "we're practising concepts with these techs".Fair enough. But I beleive concepts should fit with reality.
Practise concepts against realistic attacks.
Agreements? Arguments? please.......

You may want to check this thread out:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27008

Dark Kenpo Lord and Kenpo Tiger have made some great points! The techniques in and of themselves should be looked at as ideas or a foundation to build off of, not an end all-be all to a given situation. Being able to flow from one tech. to the next or use a part of another tech. is key, as well as being able to adapt to what is thrown. Just because the person does not step thru, does not mean that the tech. is now useless.

Mike
 
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Drag'n

Drag'n

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OK, maybe arguements was the wrong choice of word. I'm just genuinely interested in hearing some honest answers to the points I brought up.
I made the mistake of just blindly accepting certain techniques and training methods in my youth which just weren't very effective in a full contact situation. I think we should question everything we do. And test it with realistic sparring where possible.
Thanks for the links. There were some interesting responses. Obviously there are some people here who know where I'm comming from.
I've trained in a few TMA and all of them primarily focused on the step thru punch. Now I'm not saying that they dont happen at all in a fight, but they are deffinately less common than a punch thrown from the rear hand. And they're not going to look like the kind of punch we practise in a Karate type drill. I think the video link displayed that quite clearly.
Maybe I should change the question.OK how many of you devote just as much time to defnding against lead hand punches/ rear hand punches without the step/hooks/uppercuts/and combinations of punches, as you do against step tru punches? And then theres the sucker punch thrown from a normal standing position....
To me this is just a common sense question. I'm not trying to burn other peoples arts here. Theres alot I like in the kenpo I've seen. Thats why I brought this up in the kenpo forum. I thought you guys might be more open to an honest discussion.
 
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kenpo tiger said:
Drag'n, I think maybe you are looking at something without having an understanding of kenpo. Yes, we do techniques (you said, I believe, fancy combinations) of 4, 5, 6 or more strikes,


No, I said" highly polished combinations", which is actually a complement, and "long flowing combinations " which could be a complement ,if they were used against a resisting opponent ;)
 
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Drag'n

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MJS said:
Dark Kenpo Lord and Kenpo Tiger have made some great points! The techniques in and of themselves should be looked at as ideas or a foundation to build off of, not an end all-be all to a given situation. Being able to flow from one tech. to the next or use a part of another tech. is key, as well as being able to adapt to what is thrown.

Mike

I totally agree. But my point is that those ideas need to be practised against a variety of realistic techs, or you run the risk of never being able to put the ideas to effect in a very unpredictable situation(a fight)
I spent 2 years doing Shaolin long fist with a guy who was full of great concepts and a real depth of knowledge on the little intracacies of techs. But he only ever aplied them against robotic traditional attacks and as a result none of his students could really fight.
 

kenpo tiger

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Drag'n,

Sorry I misquoted you, and compliments accepted in behalf of Mr. Parker :).

We learn techniques against practically every possible attack - step through left, step through right, "boxer's" left, "boxer's" right, left hook, right hook, left overhand, right overhand, left street kick, right street kick, left roundhouse, right roundhouse, swinging club, overhead club, thrusting club, thrusting knife, overhead knife, hook left knife, hook right knife, gun techniques, to name only a few. Then there are the two-man attacks, including those from obscure angles. Each system of kenpo teaches the techniques differently, in different sequences, different versions of the same technique, and different numbers of techniques, which are dependent upon the instructor and his lineage. Mr. Parker varied what he taught his original students, who are now the masters we all learn from, so that American Kenpo would grow. Similar to taekwondo in the various federations and equally as political, although I think you'd have to look long and hard to find a long-established martial art which isn't political... we are all human. KT:asian:
 

MJS

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Drag'n said:
I totally agree. But my point is that those ideas need to be practised against a variety of realistic techs, or you run the risk of never being able to put the ideas to effect in a very unpredictable situation(a fight)
I spent 2 years doing Shaolin long fist with a guy who was full of great concepts and a real depth of knowledge on the little intracacies of techs. But he only ever aplied them against robotic traditional attacks and as a result none of his students could really fight.

I can't/won't speak for other people and how they do their Kenpo, but I make a point of doing mine with some aliveness and realism. Running through spontanious drills in which you do not know what type of attack is coming at you will also aid in giving you that more realistic feel.

As for this other inst. that you mention...well, that old saying "You fight like you train!" comes to mind here.

Mike
 
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Thanks for the replies. Can anyone post some links to other kenpo sites with vids of techniques?
I'll really have to make the effort to visit a kenpo dojo next time I'm back home in NZ.
 

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Drag'n said:
...I'll really have to make the effort to visit a kenpo dojo next time I'm back home in NZ.
I note your profile states you are located in Japan - I know its a big place but there is an American Kenpo club in Sendai City, in the Miyagi Prefecture of Japan

The club is run by Mr Dominic Jones of the BKKU. He is a member here of MT - I think his loggin is Dominic Jones - Not sure

Hope this is close to you - apologies if not

Jonah
 
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Sendai! Its waaaay up North. Sometimes my work takes me to various parts of the country though, so if I'm ever up that way I'll see if I can find it.
Thanks anyway.
 

Dominic Jones

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Hi
Drag'n said
Sendai! Its waaaay up North

Sendai is a cool city only 1.5hrs north of Tokyo, come up anytime and train. As well as running a Kenpo Club i also own a bar :)

Cheers Dom :asian:
PS. Thanks Jonah for remembering me :)
 

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Drag'n said:
I know Kenpo has a rep of being a practical SD system. But after seeing a few of the kenpo vids on this forum and others, theres something that bothers me. Its the use of boldy telegraphed step thru or lunging reverse punches used in the punch defence clips.
Where the attacker steps forward with his right foot to punch with his right hand. TMA have a bunch of moves to deal with this kind of attack, but in my experience its just not a very realistic type of attack. Generally its only novice martial artists who will attack with a punch like this because they've been taught to punch that way. If you ask any average guy to throw a punch at you, its more likely hes gonna throw a straight punch from his rear hand without stepping, more like a boxers cross or a wild hook from the rear hand. Which makes alot of those highly polished defense combos practically worthless.
The other thing that bothers me is how the attacker just stands there and lets the defender throw a 5 or 6 (or more) move combo! C'mon, youre lucky if you can get a 3 or 4 move combo off. And nobody is gonna stand there with his arm out while you block step counter............Generally as soon as you block a punch hes pulling his arm back and theres another one comming from his other hand .Every little movement you make is going to cause a reactionary movement of somekind from your opponent. Long flowing defence combos just aren't realistic.
Now I'm not trying to put down Kenpo here.These are issues that really bothered me when I was doing TMA.I'm just interested in whether other TMArtists do consider these things and what they do about it.
I expect to get some replies along the lines of "we're practising concepts with these techs".Fair enough. But I beleive concepts should fit with reality.
Practise concepts against realistic attacks.
Agreements? Arguments? please.......
I agree with you. We practice every technique as if there are multiple punches thrown. The first punch is practiced as a "step forward" not a "step through," and a secondary punch could possibly be a step through follow up. But initial punches are not practiced or trained as "step throughs." A deeper archive search will reveal a deeper discussion of the origin of this punch and its relative effectiveness in practice versus street applications.
 
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Drag'n

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Dominic Jones said:
Hi

Sendai is a cool city only 1.5hrs north of Tokyo, come up anytime and train. As well as running a Kenpo Club i also own a bar :)

Cheers Dom.
1.5hrs? Are you talking shinkansen here? Not as far as I thought. Well my wife told me its up near Hokkaido. Haha! Never ask a Tokyo girl about the rest of Japan!
If I get the chance to get out that way I'll be sure to contact you. Once I get my Japanese bike license sorted out I'll be looking to start doing some touring. Sendai sounds like a nice spot to head to.
 

Dominic Jones

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Originally Posted by Drag'n

Sendai sounds like a nice spot to head to

1.5h hours by shinkansen (bullet train) its possible to get a cheap weekend return ticket (including hotel) for 20,000yen.

By bike follow the Tohoku Expressway northwards its about 460km.

Sendai is next to Matsushima- regarded as one of the three most beautiful spots in Japan. If you get tired of the city scape then we are next to the Sea and the Mountains.

Cheers Dom :asian:
 
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