State of Mind when Fighting?

[drop bear]

Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.



That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.

reducing it to discipline is refining the idea to a workable idea rather than mess around with intangibles.

I mean we need to create a mindset that the person is going to fight back hard and smart. You don't need specialist training. You just make their training hard and mentality challenging.

I think you are over cooking this.

 

[Spinedoc]

you said it is not designed to create a top level warrior. The army said is is designed to create an exceptional Australian soldier.

you said it is designed to create someone who follows orders. The army said it is to create someone who shows initiative.

Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.

Mike

 

[drop bear]

Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.

Mike

So which mindset is better in a fight. The independent thinking martial artist or the follow orders soldier?

 

[Transk53]

So which mindset is better in a fight. The independent thinking martial artist or the follow orders soldier?

Two different disciplines bear. Cmon man!

 

[drop bear]

Two different disciplines bear. Cmon man!

Not at all. fighting mentality is what we are discussing.

And fighting mentality is a discipline a soldier would be expected to know.

So if they are different why is that?

 

[drop bear]

Only to provide some perspective regarding the military, the military does not want anyone who shows initiative beyond following and implementing orders. When they say initiative, they mean, I've given you an order, you need to show some iniative in completing it. Independent thinking is not really encouraged in any military because it is a threat to unit cohesion, discipline, and morale. Speaking as a former navy corpsman who served a while ago. Semper Fi.

Mike

I did some time in the reserves. I would say the emphasis was on professionalism. And that was kind of finding the balance between individualism ant following orders.

 

[Transk53]

Not at all. fighting mentality is what we are discussing.

And fighting mentality is a discipline a soldier would be expected to know.

So if they are different why is that?

Soldiers operate in teams across the board. Different mentality.

 

[drop bear]

Soldiers operate in teams across the board. Different mentality.

do you operate in a team? I certainly do wherever possible. And you you want Mr individual mindset who is achieving some sort of greater mental clarity. Or do you want a guy who will do what he is told"

 

[Danny T]

Yes and training at a hobby level regardless of the system generally will take less discipline than someone who is fight training. I train at a hobby level. And have less discipline than someone who is fight training.

And personally I believe that doing some sort of mindset training would not give me greater discipline than someone who is fight training.

Mental clarity and discipline are not the same thing.

 

[Tez3]

Soldiers here are taught to give and take orders, they are taught to lead as well as follow. The reasoning here is that if you can't take orders you can't give them. Soldiers here are also trained to a standard two ranks about themselves so they are always ready to take over command if necessary. Imitative in the military means doing what they are trained to without necessarily being ordered to not whatever they fancy.
The military don't have a 'fighting mentality' as such, it's not as simple as that. They don't fight without a purpose, there is a 'mission' they have to fulfil so fighting becomes incidentally to carrying out that mission. The fighting part they have trained for, carrying out endless drills during training, it becomes instinctive so they don't actually think about it. Fighting is a means to an end not the end, so the thoughts are always on the target not the fighting. They do have an aggressive mentality which may be taken for a fighting mentality I suppose.

 

[drop bear]

Mental clarity and discipline are not the same thing.

ok how are you defining the difference?

 

[ShotoNoob]

...This is what we've been saying… the base level approach to mental training you're talking about isn't really anything like actual mental training as addressed in classical systems.

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I WOULD QUALIFY THIS AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT, THIS IS ESSENTIALLY MY THESIS....YES.

 

[drop bear]

 

[ShotoNoob]

From your sentence, I was not sure if you were comparing mma to all athletics or just to TMA as you refer to both...??

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I consider MMA a sport, i.e., a subset of all sports activity as a generalization.

I am not sure how much research you have done or personal experience you have regarding athletics, or other sporting activities, to be disagreeing there and claiming such. Top, and even intermediate athletics, has a high degree of mental and psychological work that is done as part of the training. For a long time now a lot of the commercial, competitive sports world has placed emphasis on this also. Name an NBL or major league team that doesn't have a dedicated sports psychologist as part of their get-up?

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|Life experience and empirical experience / observations in the dojo. Professional sport training vs. non-such aside, you have to take the detailed information I've posted and see if you come to believe that what I've advocated matches the Okinawan Masters teachings.
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I really like how you discuss the issue and bring out differing viewpoint to mine. Your personal comparison to the Okinawan Master's teaching is how you yourself come to grips with the 'truth.'

This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds)

.
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What makes you think I haven't been challenged in my life or found myself in a self-defense situation with a physically superior opponent? I've already posted on this. One of the opponents where the 2 students (@ dojo) were challenging me (LIKE YOU) was a officer [Captain?] in charge of a platoon of military police where they train professionally? for both combative & law enforcement real life situations.
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The concept of a corner man is of course gospel in the sport fighting world, especially including MMA. And of course a corner man can be of benefit. Try not to challenge me with obvious. What I said is that I PERSONALLY don't need a corner man and I explained my philosophy on the instructor role in earlier posts. Traditional martial arts is about individual development, not the team dictating your success. The latter is sports....
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If we are in kumite competing against one another, and you think you will benefit from having a coach yelling instructions to you as I smash you in the face so fast you don't have time to react.... you are welcome to a corner man. As between 'rounds' my aim is you never get to round 2. If you don't understand the traditional karate foundation and how to apply it in kumite, IMO, the wrong time to learn in the middle of a competition. It's not my corner man against your corner man in kumite. See YT for example, say Shotokan.
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In traditional karate, where fights are won or lost in fractions of a second, all the thinking is solely up to you. In sports like MMA where we dance around in the Thai clinch for 30 seconds where neither opponent know how to break the stalemate, sure yell over to the corner man for the solution--since you clearly aren't prepared to do it on your own....
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The Greg Jackson's of the world have made fame & fortune from your approach, and with good results. My approach is Greg Jackson's opponent reliance on Greg Jackson is going to be a huge weakness for the Greg Jackson 'team competitor,' because I already know--by my traditional karate training--the bread of my tactical expertise backed by the depth & sophistication of the traditional karate foundation--what needs to be done. the simple primal question is can I or can't i do it?
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OK, so you don't need one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?

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I realize this is a forum where members like to socialize. Since you can't win on the issues, you talk your way to victory by talking down your opponent. How typical pre-fight MMA interview-like. Note how you have, at the end, also appointed yourself as the "referee.' Silly. Might get an interview with some MMA schools though, grant you that..... Is that your agenda?

 

[drop bear]

If we are in kumite competing against one another, and you think you will benefit from having a coach yelling instructions to you as I smash you in the face so fast you don't have time to react.... you are welcome to a corner man. As between 'rounds' my aim is you never get to round 2. If you don't understand the traditional karate foundation and how to apply it in kumite, IMO, the wrong time to learn in the middle of a competition. It's not my corner man against your corner man in kumite.

By the way when you asked why people think you haven't been in a serious fight.

Here you are working on the principle you are better in basically every way to your opponent.

There are very few fighters who have had all the advantages and have fought quality guys.

 

[Tez3]

"State of Mind" by the Royal Marine Commandos
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/custom/navy/trainingtool.html

 

[ShotoNoob]

By the way when you asked why people think you haven't been in a serious fight.

Here you are working on the principle you are better in basically every way to your opponent.

There are very few fighters who have had all the advantages and have fought quality guys.

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How are you not sure you aren't projecting your own desire to be no. 1?
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In traditional karate we strive for the principles that provide us the skills to be better. I've gotten better.
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I've got a very good track record in kumite @ the dojo & among dojos in my area, including against other karate instructors & tournament competitors (@ area dojos).
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Truth be told, I haven't lost more, because the really good TMAs in my area (a small group) are of also of like mind to me. We don't waste time with a lot of free sparring. These guys are confident in their accomplishments and don't see the PERSONAL need to challenge another serious practitioner such as myself. So my kumite record is biased toward success in that regard.
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You know on the internet, there used to be a very good personal journal of the Oyama karate official, Shigeru Oyama-I believe, who was sent by the founder to America. I can't find the journal anymore. Anyway, a couple of his chapters deal with actual kumite and and his work as a bouncer to support himself financially. The school was owned by an American, who when he laid eyes on the non-nondescript looking Japanese black-belt of average height tfor a japanese, slim build, say an MMA lightweight, the school owner was pretty disgusted. The students at the school also chortled their disbelief & disrespect (as have some here), including disregarding his instruction. It was the same at the bar he bounced for.
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As you know, the Kyo guys go full contact, no problem. So he tells how he did just that to straighten out the American owner, the students, and the bullies (bigger,strong, aggressive) at the bar. His technique & tactics he described was not all that complicated, however, he had the "mental clarity" foundation, as well as getting himself in great shape with a lot of pushups, situps, 100s and 100s of kihon exercises. You should try it sometime, might get similar results to him basically wiping the floor against all challengers.
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No one is invincible. What one can do is strive to be the best-prepared.

 

[Transk53]

do you operate in a team? I certainly do wherever possible. And you you want Mr individual mindset who is achieving some sort of greater mental clarity. Or do you want a guy who will do what he is told"

I doubt you could comprehend that.

 

[Transk53]

A bit peeved I could jumped on here, oh well

 

[drop bear]

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How are you not sure you aren't projecting your own desire to be no. 1?
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In traditional karate we strive for the principles that provide us the skills to be better. I've gotten better.
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I've got a very good track record in kumite @ the dojo & among dojos in my area, including against other karate instructors & tournament competitors (@ area dojos).
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Truth be told, I haven't lost more, because the really good TMAs in my area (a small group) are of also of like mind to me. We don't waste time with a lot of free sparring. These guys are confident in their accomplishments and don't see the PERSONAL need to challenge another serious practitioner such as myself. So my kumite record is biased toward success in that regard.
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You know on the internet, there used to be a very good personal journal of the Oyama karate official, Shigeru Oyama-I believe, who was sent by the founder to America. I can't find the journal anymore. Anyway, a couple of his chapters deal with actual kumite and and his work as a bouncer to support himself financially. The school was owned by an American, who when he laid eyes on the non-nondescript looking Japanese black-belt of average height tfor a japanese, slim build, say an MMA lightweight, the school owner was pretty disgusted. The students at the school also chortled their disbelief & disrespect (as have some here), including disregarding his instruction. It was the same at the bar he bounced for.
|
As you know, the Kyo guys go full contact, no problem. So he tells how he did just that to straighten out the American owner, the students, and the bullies (bigger,strong, aggressive) at the bar. His technique & tactics he described was not all that complicated, however, he had the "mental clarity" foundation, as well as getting himself in great shape with a lot of pushups, situps, 100s and 100s of kihon exercises. You should try it sometime, might get similar results to him basically wiping the floor against all challengers.
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No one is invincible. What one can do is strive to be the best-prepared.

Lets look back. You are so fast you are unblockable while also having such good defence that you are also un hitable. Winning fights in seconds rather than minutes. And having such great mental clarity that having Greg Jackson in your corner would be more of a hindrance than an advantage.

If you were any harder you would rust.