so you got knocked over, now what?

[searcher]

I've been taught both to get to one's side and sidekick, and to get to crab position. I prefer the side position. In any event, one must keep moving to keep those feet toward the opponent!

Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position. A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.

From the crab: 1.) place one hand on knee
2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
3.) slide opposite leg between foot and hand
4.) create three point contact
5.) release hand off of knee and raise to standing position.

The advantage of this position is that single and double leg takedowns are possible plus you can quickly protect your melon.

Sorry for the crappy description. I am trying to think through the steps and am having a terrible time with it.

 

[KenpoTex]

Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position. A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.

From the crab: 1.) place one hand on knee
2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
3.) slide opposite leg between foot and hand
4.) create three point contact
5.) release hand off of knee and raise to standing position.

The advantage of this position is that single and double leg takedowns are possible plus you can quickly protect your melon.

Sorry for the crappy description. I am trying to think through the steps and am having a terrible time with it.

Sounds like you got it. It's basically a variation of the one that I wrote out. The only differences are the starting postition (crab vs flat on back) and putting the hand on your knee as opposed to leaving it up to check or block.

 

[Shaolinwind]

Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position. A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.

From the crab: 1.) place one hand on knee
2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
3.) slide opposite leg between foot and hand
4.) create three point contact
5.) release hand off of knee and raise to standing position.

The advantage of this position is that single and double leg takedowns are possible plus you can quickly protect your melon.

Sorry for the crappy description. I am trying to think through the steps and am having a terrible time with it.

I'll get back to you when I can do step 1, lol.

Thanks for that, It makes a good deal of sense. Funny you should mention the takedown posibility, just today they showed us one, you just sorta do a scissor thing grabbing the ankle with one leg and below the knee with the other and down they go.

 

[Paul Genge]

If knocked to the floor there is every chance that this will be followed up by the attacker kicking you. Systema's approach to this is very different from what most people practice and uses movement and not techniques to keep us safe. I have an article and video clip of working from the floor here for those interested in it.


Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

 

[Ubermint]

Wouldn't it be better...

To control his wrists...

And use the open guard...

As the gracies have been doing, since they actually win fights from there?

 

[arnisador]

Maybe, if he's got long sleeves that won't rip, and isn't just kicking you in the head so you can't get to them. Without sleeves it's hard to maintain a grip in the midst of a sweaty fight.

 

[Ubermint]

In case you missed it:

This may not be the best example, as Fedor's GNP was excellent, but it's FEDOR people. and Nog got some guard kicks in.

I mean seriously, he kicks your HEAD? That's moronic (yes, it's been tried in pride). It's a big sweep or leglock at his doorstep. Did you not see the picture I posted where Ryan knocks Ishizawa out from that position?

Look, open guard is far from the safest place to be. I could see your reasoning if you'd said "stack and GNP", thai kick his legs or even the sakuraba flying stomp/chop, but you chose possibly the worst example.

Nevertheless, if you find yourself on your back, open guard/buttscooting is far superior to the Fred Ettish-esque kick-out-his-knee-joint Krottying and systema drunken somersault defenses already suggested. Open guard has a proven track record against the 'roid-ridden and aggresive.

 

[Kenpo_man]

This is the best way to get up if the guy is right on top of you. Good job explaining it.

The first priority is to get back up, you don't want the guy (and possibly his buddies) doing the "riverdance" on your face.

Basic goals: roll to your back, keep your feet between yourself and your opponent, get up using the "guarded standup" AKA, "street-fighter standup." How does this work? Start from lying on your back, roll to one hip (we'll pick the left for the sake of this illustration). Plant your "top" foot and bottom hand (since we're on our left hip this means the right foot and left hand). Push up so that your hand and foot are the only things touching the ground (left leg is able to kick or check, right arm is in front to block), swing your left leg back through between your right foot and left hand and stand up.

The benefits of this technique are that you are always in a postition to kick to create space should the attacker close on you. By using this method, you also move your head away from the attacker rather than toward him. There are various other methods, for example "propelling yourself up" like you mentioned, however, once you start this move you are committed and are leaving yourself off-balance and open to an attack. If you saw the last UFC (52 I think), a guy tried this method to get up and popped up right into a roundhouse kick to the face. I'll leave this one to the guys on the movie screen.

 

[still learning]

Hello, As time goes by (even short ones) the learning never stops.

My son and I just came back from a Universal Kempo-Karate Seminar in Las Vegas. One of the things we cover and practice on was falling on the ground back. We have many different things you can do and we practice the same thing as " Chobaba" did in his practice. (On the back- kick with the legs and how to counter.) The simple it is the easlier to do-it. .......Aloha

 

[Bod]

I would suggest that buttscooting/open guard, although good, is not the be all and end all to self defence floor fighting where the fighters are separated.

It works well where:

a: You are fighting one on one and can face your single opponent

b: No stomping on the ground rule applies, as you are mainly avoiding the person approaching and mounting you. Open guard threatens a sweep followed by a dominant groundfight.

c: No kicking in the jewels rule applies.

Don't forget that the most dangerous thing that can happen in UFC fighting in this situation is that as you try to rise the opponent comes over for a mount or even takes your back.

However where there is more than one attacker get up. The most dangerous thing that can happen is multiple kicks to the head and kidneys. This is especially true as primate behaviour in this circumstance is for non-alphas to run in and kick or slap you (depending if you are human or chimpanzee) and then run back out again, while the alpha goes all out.

I don't know if it makes more sense to turn towards or away from the person kicking the head or towards or away from the person kicking the ribs. One way opens up the back of the head as a target and one opens up the kidneys. I was kicked unconcious on the ground years ago but I still have no knowledge of which way is best to turn.

Either way the general rule in a multiple attacker situation would be to roll on the way down and if that fails get up - before they change attack modes and start kicking you.

 

[Ubermint]

I would suggest that buttscooting/open guard, although good, is not the be all and end all to self defence floor fighting where the fighters are separated.

It works well where:

a: You are fighting one on one and can face your single opponent

Suggest a better method then. That arguement applies just as much to the other methods suggested in this thread[/qyite[

b: No stomping on the ground rule applies, as you are mainly avoiding the person approaching and mounting you. Open guard threatens a sweep followed by a dominant groundfight.

WRONG

PLAY MORE SERIOUS

c: No kicking in the jewels rule applies...

Just as much to the bottom man as the top man...Though i'm sure I can dig up a brazilian vale tudo fight where the open guard was used AND nut stomping was legal.

Don't forget that the most dangerous thing that can happen in UFC fighting in this situation is that as you try to rise the opponent comes over for a mount or even takes your back.

 

[Bod]

Ubermint.

On point a, I don't believe you've refuted my point. Do you believe that the whole point of buttscooting/open guard is to threaten the guard and/or sweeps and or kicks. If so, what use is this strategy when facing more than one opponent. Sure it beats turning turtle. Sure the skills gained will help the mobility that will get you up. But I don't believe that any serious UFC style fighter would suggest fighting from the guard against multiple opponents.

On point b - as your picture shows - turning turtle and staying flat to the mat Judo style (check out the "defenders" foot and leg positions) is definitely worse than open-guard, but is not the same as trying to rise. It's a simple choice between the perils of a stomp in guard or trying to rise and facing the perils of a stomp as you move combined with the perils of someone taking your back as you half turn your back.

I don't know what you mean about playing more serious. Sounds a bit macho to me.

The picture you've shown for point c shows a guy defending blows from another guy in his guard. Are you saying he'd be safer if he was mounted from the front or rear? He is effectively using his knee to diminish the power the attacker can put into his blows, and if he moves that knee at the right moment can cause his opponent to overbalance, and ten control his head and sweep. Harder to do if mounted.

You got to understand that I'm not saying facing a single opponent in buttscoot mode doesn't work, just that it can be an inferior strategy in a different situation. The point of buttscooting is to face your opponent using your legs as a primary weapon, and stopping your opponent passing your guard. The pictures you've shown show one on one matches by men wearing kit specifically designed to increase their chances when in a floor position. Cool. The stuff is good training and good competition, I've no problem with that. But you can't stop two opponents from passing your guard.

That's why I'm with those who say start in open guard and then use the leg through method to get back to your feet.

Personally if I was getting to my feet and someone tried to take my back I'd get back into open guard, then flip them on entry, and get up. If they tried to stomp me as I was getting to my feet I'd roll. If they were an experienced ground fighter and had others with them I'd probably lose, but I've got to try and improve my chances.

And staying in open guard is going to diminish my chances by the second, as the guys you are not facing take the opportunity to kick you about the head.

 

[arnisador]

So much depends on how exactly one falls in relation to one's opponent. It's hard to generalize!