So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Flying Crane]

One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks.

Well, I've made it painfully clear how I feel about the vast number of techniques...

 

[KenpoRonin]

One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks. Oddly, I also read something very much like that in Infinite Insights 5 last night. Hmmm.

But only Larry does it right. Just ask KenpoRonin.

Dave

That would be putting words in my mouth. I have never said that no one else didn't have the system. I never said that Tatum had all the system. I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't. I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person. I then said I believed that person to be Tatum. The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Cute. And for the record, not all of those attacks were ad-hominem. Calling somneone an idiot is not an ad-hominem argument. An ad-hominem argument is to say they were incorrect, because of their idiotness; this differs from arguing with the points in their argument. Beyond that, it's just stone throwing.

kenpojujutsu3 made some perfectly valid points. Even if the tone is unsolicitous, that does not make the argument ad-hominem. "That guy is wrong, because he is [inset derogatrory epithet here]" is ad-hominem.

Regards,

Dave

Ad Hominem (Also called argument against the person) An argument that conclude that a claim is false because it was mad by a particular person is fallacious unless there are good reasons to believe that most of what the person says about the subject matter of the conclusion is false. Sometimes the Character of the person is attacked (Abusive ad hominem), sometime the person’s circumstances are attacked (circumstantial ad hominem) and sometime the person is attacked for somehow being associated with the position criticized in the argument (tu quoque).

Introduction to Logic and critical thinking Second edition Merrilee H Salmon

I know what it is, don't think that because you claim to be a Dr. that makes more knowledgeable than others.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Nice spin call me a liar then change it. One of the biggest problem with people in Martial Arts is they claim to be something they are not. I don't train at Tatum's school, nor have I ever. So I will not claim to train with him. He did Give me black belt Cert which I charish very much for if he endorses my black belt I know I am legit. there is nothing worse than people claiming they trained under someone when they only shared the mat with them a few times. ok maybe child molesters are.

I didn't try to change anything, it's called sarcasm to someone who missed the goal of kenpo as stated by Ed Parker himself. Respect. If you want to hold this torch about what Mr. Parker thought, hold all of it. including the respect part. Don't pick and choose it further weakens an already legless argument.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

That would be putting words in my mouth. I have never said that no one else didn't have the system. I never said that Tatum had all the system. I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't. I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person. I then said I believed that person to be Tatum. The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.

Hypocrisy? Look it up.

As far as me being a horses backside, absolutely...guilty as charged. Whether you intended it that way or not, the manner in which you posted your evidence came accross the computer screen as a disrespectful representation of opinion as fact, leaving out additional information that provides important context when reading such quotes. Content, without context, lacks meaning. Unfortunately, the only context you provided was...oh yeah...read it and weep, and put this in your pipe and smoke it.

Prior to that, you stated that logic dictated a conclusion. No premises were provided, no progressive syllogism, no backgound to support that logic would dictate X. When you attempted to wriggle out, you provided further info-flow that was, again, less than internally valid.

I have the disease of brain and hands not working right as well; I've also got the disorder in which I can only get one foot out of my mouth long enough to snap the other one in it. Perhaps it is the limitation of the media that contributed to this discourse, but absent evidence to the contrary, I am left to assume that your proposal -- left to stand as it is -- is an example of fanism and evangelical loyalty. Props: You should be proud of your instrucotr & lineage.

In my personal opinion, one should also be open to the possibility that there might be more in this universe, Horatio, than is accounted for in your take on things.

Me again,

Dave

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

That would be putting words in my mouth. I have never said that no one else didn't have the system. I never said that Tatum had all the system. I never said there was no information out there that others had that Tatum didn't. I just implied that there would be one (not mentioning names) who had more of the information than any one other person. I then said I believed that person to be Tatum. The Hypocrisy of you critizing my logic knows no bounds.

Actually your previous posts were pushing these very points, unless you edited them.

:feedtroll

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ad Hominem (Also called argument against the person) An argument that conclude that a claim is false because it was mad by a particular person is fallacious unless there are good reasons to believe that most of what the person says about the subject matter of the conclusion is false. Sometimes the Character of the person is attacked (Abusive ad hominem), sometime the person’s circumstances are attacked (circumstantial ad hominem) and sometime the person is attacked for somehow being associated with the position criticized in the argument (tu quoque).

Introduction to Logic and critical thinking Second edition Merrilee H Salmon

I know what it is, don't think that because you claim to be a Dr. that makes more knowledgeable than others.

That makes two of us.

And I keep Copi's Introduction to Logic & Critical Thinking near my PC, along with some papers on George Polya's Patterns of Plausible Inference. However, right now I'm working on Functional Soft Tissue Examination & Treatment by Manual Methods, by Warren Hammer...particularly, the shoulder chapter.

D

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say. Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!

http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm

TRACYS GUIDE TO AMERICAN KENPO
VIDEOS ....

Let me get this straight....

1) First you state your opinon as fact....

2) When the issue of seniorty comes up like 'Doc' Chapel being Senior to Mr. Tatum you throw seniority out of the window and say it doesn't matter because of an article that names Mr. Tatum as ONE OF THREE proteges.....

3) When that doesn't work to convince people of your GM's magnificence you post someone else's OPINION, and imply that it carries weight because of ...get this......their seniority!

4) And then you state that your arguement has no logical flaws?
:rofl:
:roflmao:
.....................
:whip:

 

[pete]

KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...

1) Being a good kenpoist is not in question. He trains with Clyde so he'll get my vote.

2) That Mr. Tatum teaches A correct and complete system of American Kenpo is not in question.

The problem are the claims that 1) Tatum is teaching THE complete system of American Kenpo as the system went through several revisions and was due for some more and 2) That Tatum is the ONLY and BEST person teaching "THE complete" system of American Kenpo.

In short opinions aren't a problem, people stating their opinion as fact and then soliciting very old information that is both opinionated and subjective as "hard" evidence is a problem.

He likes GM Tatum, great so do I. I think he's one of the best. I also think Huk is one of the best, I also think Doc is one of the best, I also think Trejo is one of the best, I also think Pick is one of the best..... unfortunately none of them are THE Best because that cannot be quantified and no level of conjecture (speculating without hard evidence) will change that.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...

I admire his tenacity; with the slew of us picking on him, he stood his ground. I'd bet he's a good kenpoist, if he brings even a fraction of that to his training. Yet again, Mr. Tatum's kenpo ain't the only kenpo. Damn good, and fast enough and technical enough that I'm sure he gets bored waiting for an attack to get there, so he works on grocery lists, etc. So in answer to whom, yes. Larry is one of them. That was not in question. Larry's undisputed apostolic succession was (note: my words, not kenporonin's).

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kenpodoc]

This has been an amusing thread since we all know that Chief Roman is the clear successor to Mr. Parker.

Come on guys join me and ignor this thread. Wy try to argue with someone who knows the One True Way.

Jeff

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

1) Being a good kenpoist is not in question. He trains with Clyde so he'll get my vote.

2) That Mr. Tatum teaches A correct and complete system of American Kenpo is not in question.

The problem are the claims that 1) Tatum is teaching THE complete system of American Kenpo as the system went through several revisions and was due for some more and 2) That Tatum is the ONLY and BEST person teaching "THE complete" system of American Kenpo.

In short opinions aren't a problem, people stating their opinion as fact and then soliciting very old information that is both opinionated and subjective as "hard" evidence is a problem.

He likes GM Tatum, great so do I. I think he's one of the best. I also think Huk is one of the best, I also think Doc is one of the best, I also think Trejo is one of the best, I also think Pick is one of the best..... unfortunately none of them are THE Best because that cannot be quantified and no level of conjecture (speculating without hard evidence) will change that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I didn't.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav

Kiss my converse

 

[Carol]

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

Sho 'Nuff

 

[hongkongfooey]

KenpoRonin may not be the captain of the harvard dabating team, but he is a good kenpoist (we trained together at a camp) and has legitimate point. Larry Tatum is teaching the correct and complete system of American Kenpo. that answers the question. others maybe, who cares...

So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So what is the incorrect system of Kenpo? Just because it is the latest doesn't make it correct. I would take an older version of Kenpo taught with correct basics and body mechanics over the "correct" version that many schools teach today.

And therein lies the controversy.

What is the difference between complete and correct? There are several who teach the complete kenpo cirriculum...techs, extensions, sets...2 man, staff, etc. Stuff that, for one reason or another, has been dropped out by others in kenpo. Even among them ("them" being the guys who do the complete system) you won't find 2 who teach 5 swords the same way. Minor variations will exist from school to school, and from generation to generation.

Correct differs from complete. I'm still working on my footwork in Short 1, and on making sure my hammerfists land like hammers, and not puffs (I figure, a hammer breaks whatever you hit with it, since the targets are softer than the striking tool. So, until I'm breaking bones or rupturing organs with every hammerfist in Thundering Hammers, I got no business moving on to the extension). This, to me, is correct-focused kenpo.

There are a few who will be able to do it all. I ain't one of them. Personally, I would rather really own about 1/2 dozen sparring combinations, 1/2 dozen kick-boxing combos, about 1/2 of the kenpo technique body, a handful of throws, and some wrasslin'. And I mean OWN it. I can still explore and discover new things in simple basics that I'd never seen before. Aside from participating in this thread, the bulk of the day has been spent reviewing the biomechanics of the shoulder with throwing activities, and on identifying kinematic chain dysfunctions and how to fix them. This info interestingly applies to much of what we do as kenpoists, and suggests some rather needful changes from what most do, most often.

So now, instead of tromping off to practice the complete system, I'm tromping off to re-evaluate shoulder muscle dynamics in kenpo blocks & strikes. I gots no business burning more data deeper into memory if my mechanics need improving. And my mechanics ALWAYS need improving.

But that's just me. I'm also an idiot: Ask my ex-girlfriends.

Dave

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

This has been an amusing thread since we all know that Chief Roman is the clear successor to Mr. Parker....

Jeff

:rofl:
:roflmao:

that was just low!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I felt this was fitting for this thread.

http://www.badmovies.org/movies/lastdragon/lastdragon6.wav

The sad part is I pledged a fraternity (actually we call it a social fellowship) and the names given to me were

1) Sho'Nuff

and

2) Blackie Chan