So the recent Grand Master thread got me thinking

[Andy Moynihan]

As anyone who knows me knows, I live in the land of the self-proclaimed 10th Dans. I think I may have even seen something in the Massachusetts General Laws about"...no city, town or village in the Commonwealth shall possess less than one (1) 10th degree Shaolin Kempo Grandmaster". or something.

I will leave it to your educated guess as to my feelings on the matter of the overpopulation of Grand Master Debaters in the MA world.

So this got me thinking whilst enjoying my day off sitting out by the Salem Willows pier ......I always expect MA will have some part in my life, but assuming that it won't be too long before I get back into some kind of consistent, formal training, I still expect that it will realistically be Many Many Years (TM) before I find myself in a position to teach, if in fact i do decide that to teach is what I want apart from on an occasional, informal, meet and greet type of one-off sort of thing.

As a matter of personal opinion, it wouldn't exactly cripple me with grief to see the entire concept of a "belt system" disappear completely, but the pragmatist in me knows that this will never happen--to some people it's a cool, enjoyable part of their tradition, to others, too good of a moneymaking tool to dump. That's the reality.

And of course, the counter argument can be made that there has to be *some* method to gauge one's progress, or to know who is qualified to teach what. And I do happen to agree.


So I got to thinking about the grand master thread, and i ask myself, Ok, How would you approach this?

I resolved that if I *did* ever find myself wanting to teach, that I would cut through as much of this stuff as realistically possible by the simple method of the Challenge Coin.

For those of you with no military background, or who do not know the history or tradition of the Challenge Coin, Wiki has a page that is surprisingly very good, and very close to how the Challenge Coin was explained to me when I recieved my first one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin

And I get to thinking, yeah, if teaching ever *is* in my future, I think I'm gonna do that!

Somebody achieves teaching qualification? It's a single, numbered Challenge Coin for them, with that name and number recorded for reference that someone looking for verification can see.

Much more simple, and a very easy way to take pride in what they achieved, and to call bull**** on any pretender.

My opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it

 

[Xue Sheng]

whilst enjoying my day off sitting out by the Salem Willows pier

OK I admit it has been years since I was anywhere near the Salem Willows pier as a matter of fact laptops did not exist then nor where PCs everywhere but you are (or were by this time) sitting out by the Salem Willow pier typing this an thinking about MA and Grandmasters... DAMN MAN you are as crazy as I am...seek help before it is too late

 

[Andy Moynihan]

OK I admit it has been years since I was anywhere near the Salem Willows pier as a matter of fact laptops did not exist then nor where PCs everywhere but you are (or were by this time) sitting out by the Salem Willow pier typing this an thinking about MA and Grandmasters... DAMN MAN you are as crazy as I am...seek help before it is too late

Well actually I came home and used the family desktop--but the laptop shall soon be mine.

 

[newGuy12]

Somebody achieves teaching qualification? It's a single, numbered Challenge Coin for them, with that name and number recorded for reference that someone looking for verification can see.

Much more simple, and a very easy way to take pride in what they achieved, and to call bull**** on any pretender.

That wikipedia article is nice. Military culture is neat to read about.

But Xue Sheng is right -- you are thinking way too much about all of these GMs! Hahaha! ---> I am only joking!

Seriously though -- you are not serious about this. These "challenge coins", from what I understand -- tell me if I am wrong -- they are only prideful things among soldiers or sailors or Marines, right? They are not used for any "real" things. In other words, if someone were to walk into a government office of some sort and had to prove that they are a veteran of the armed forces, this "challenge coin" would be no good at all! The proper document is the DD-214, right?

I remember one time hearing G. Gordon Liddy, the Watergate Hotel burglar guy, getting mad at someone on the radio show and saying, "You show me your dd-214, and I will show you mine!" Because he served in the US Army and this other guy may have not.



Ha! Documentation -- there are A students who have the BS degree in some kind of "computer engineering" (NOT computer science) -- you can ask them some simple question -- AND THEN THEY CANNOT ANSWER -- THEY ARE CLUELESS!

On the other hand, you meet some guys with NO formal training that can give assistance that works and is illuminating! Accreditation is not the end all, as a general rule. I look askance these days at almost any kind of "certification"!
​

 

[Andy Moynihan]

That wikipedia article is nice. Military culture is neat to read about.

But Xue Sheng is right -- you are thinking way too much about all of these GMs! Hahaha! ---> I am only joking!

Again, just my thoughts on the matter and worth exactly what you paid for it

Seriously though -- you are not serious about this. These "challenge coins", from what I understand -- tell me if I am wrong -- they are only prideful things among soldiers or sailors or Marines, right? They are not used for any "real" things. In other words, if someone were to walk into a government office of some sort and had to prove that they are a veteran of the armed forces, this "challenge coin" would be no good at all! The proper document is the DD-214, right?

Correct about the DD-214. However I can see the utility of a coin system for my purposes. Or I could just be thinking way too far into it. But it's fun .​

Ha! Documentation -- there are A students who have the BS degree in some kind of "computer engineering" (NOT computer science) -- you can ask them some simple question -- AND THEN THEY CANNOT ANSWER -- THEY ARE CLUELESS!

On the other hand, you meet some guys with NO formal training that can give assistance that works and is illuminating! Accreditation is not the end all, as a general rule. I look askance these days at almost any kind of "certification"!​

that's what I was thinking, the minimalistic approach.

Or it could be I'm just putting way too much thought into this. idunno. But it's a cool idea anyway I think.

 

[kidswarrior]

That wikipedia article is nice. Military culture is neat to read about.

But Xue Sheng is right -- you are thinking way too much about all of these GMs! Hahaha! ---> I am only joking!

Seriously though -- you are not serious about this. These "challenge coins", from what I understand -- tell me if I am wrong -- they are only prideful things among soldiers or sailors or Marines, right? They are not used for any "real" things. In other words, if someone were to walk into a government office of some sort and had to prove that they are a veteran of the armed forces, this "challenge coin" would be no good at all! The proper document is the DD-214, right?

I remember one time hearing G. Gordon Liddy, the Watergate Hotel burglar guy, getting mad at someone on the radio show and saying, "You show me your dd-214, and I will show you mine!" Because he served in the US Army and this other guy may have not.



Ha! Documentation -- there are A students who have the BS degree in some kind of "computer engineering" (NOT computer science) -- you can ask them some simple question -- AND THEN THEY CANNOT ANSWER -- THEY ARE CLUELESS!

On the other hand, you meet some guys with NO formal training that can give assistance that works and is illuminating! Accreditation is not the end all, as a general rule. I look askance these days at almost any kind of "certification"!
​

Well, I never heard of this challenge coin thing. All I got after four years in the navy was my dog tags--and the DD 214, yeah, of course--but I always figured that was a scam so if they had to call you back because every last draftable guy in the country was dead, you couldn't run, you couldn't hide.

Besides which, I guess it's been a loooong week, cause I don't get this challenge thing at all (no I didn't read the Wikipedia thingy too closely). But what I did read, seems to me it's just a way to make sure somebody is buying the next round...and the next, and the next, and so on, and so on... Now that's the military I remember. :lol:

Now can someone connect the dots for this dimwit (me) and explain how that relates to this GM thing?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well as an example of how Challenge Coins are normally used, here are the rules for my Civil Air Patrol Squadron:

RULES
* The challenge is initiated by drawing your coin, holding it in the air by whatever means possible and state, scream, shout or otherwise verbally acknowledge that you are initiating a Coin Check. Another less vocal method is to place it firmly on the bar, table, or floor (this should produce an audible noise which can be clearly heard by those being challenged, but try not to leave a permanent imprint).

*If you accidentally drop your coin and it makes an audible sound upon impact, you have just "accidentally" initiated a Coin Check( this is called paying the price for improper care of your coin).

*The response consists of all those persons being challenged drawing their coin in a like manner.

* If you are challenged and are unable to properly respond, you must buy a round for the challenger and, where applicable, the group being challenged.

*If all those challenged are able to respond in the correct manner, the challenger must buy the round for all those challenged.

*Failure to buy a round is a despicable crime and will require that you turn in your coin to the issuing Agency.

WHEN-WHERE
*Coin checks are permitted, ANY TIME, ANY PLACE.

EXCEPTIONS:
*There are no exceptions to the above rules. At the time of the Challenge, you are permitted one full step and one arm's reach to locate your coin. If you still cannot reach it, guess who's buying?

A COIN IS A COIN
* The only valid coin for a coin check is a coin. A coin on a belt buckle is a belt buckle. A coin with a hole in it around the neck is a necklace. A coin made into a keychain....Yup, a keychain. Coins worn in a pouch around the neck are valid.

Always carry your coin as a reminder of your commitment and connection to something bigger in your daily life.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now here is how I could see them being used in an MA context.

*Someone is awarded their numbered coin for a certain stage of progress( membership, teaching quals, whatever you like). Optimally as I have it figured, that person's number stays the same on all their coins if there are more than one to earn ( EXAMPLE: Andy joins a school, it happens that in this school a challenge coin is also given for membership and not just teaching creds.. his challenge coin number is 867-5309. Should he progress to teaching credentials, his new, distinctive, coin will also be numbered 867-5309).



*Andy meets someone claiming XYZ amount of ability in his school whom he does not recognize.

* Andy initiates a coin check. If the person responds, Andy gets them a drink. If not, at the minimum, the person is outed in front of whoever else he made the claims to. the honorable thing to do would be to buy Andy, and all others he lied to, a drink, or get his *** beat, or at the very least be subject to razzing by all parties for the remainder of the encounter.

 

[newGuy12]

No one can argue with this though -- the Grand Ultimate Way of bestowing some kind of certification on someone is to have them do as was done in the tv show "Kung Fu"...

Have the Student go to some special building, and fight a bunch of people -- good contact!

Finally, *IF* they make it. *IF*

Then, they will approach the big cauldron that is hot, and lift it up with their forarms. They will then recieve the brands in their arms!!!

Nothing would be cooler than that! You have to admit, that is one amazing thing. Whether or not this type of thing ever happened, this would be freaking cool!

 

[newGuy12]

Or, someone could commission some expert tattoo artist to make a very nice tattoo of some sort. Everyone who reached the status of Teacher in the school would be tattooed with this.

Now, if anyone were ever caught with this tatoo that was not really qualified, oh, my! No, there is no other way, this person will be beaten time and time again, until that tatoo goes away!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Or, someone could commission some expert tattoo artist to make a very nice tattoo of some sort. Everyone who reached the status of Teacher in the school would be tattooed with this.

Now, if anyone were ever caught with this tatoo that was not really qualified, oh, my! No, there is no other way, this person will be beaten time and time again, until that tatoo goes away!

The Hell's Angels have us beat on that one.

A certain skull with wings done a certain way is considered their "logo". They have put the word out to every tattoo artist in the country over time that doing this tattoo on a non-Angel is a bozo no-no.

 

[newGuy12]

Right! And I heard a story once about a rival MC that came upon a tattoo artist that had the orange color. This orange color was used in this tattoo. The MC Man was a Pagan. He looked real hard at that orange ink, and that orange ink went away!

The story goes that at the time, there was a ruckus between the Hell's Angels MC and the Pagans, and things got to the point where there was violent exchanges.

The tattoo artist knew better than to not comply. He made that orange ink go away!

 

[Hand Sword]

Funny enough, at least at one time, the Hell's Angels logo was copyrighted!

 

[kidswarrior]

Then, they will approach the big cauldron that is hot, and lift it up with their forarms. They will then recieve the brands in their arms!!!

Nothing would be cooler than that! Whether or not this type of thing ever happened, this would be freaking cool!

Yeah, for someone else. Like, I could watch you do it NG, then I would feel really cool. You, on the other hand, might not feel so good.

Andy initiates a coin check. The honorable thing to do would be to buy Andy, and all others he lied to, a drink, or get his *** beat

I'd just want to skip all the secret signet rings, handshakes, tattoos, and biker wannabe national *grapevine* threats, and take whatever the group could dish out. I've always thought that was a better test of rank anyway--how many guys does it take ....

 

[newGuy12]

--how many guys does it take ....

That would certainly do the trick!:boing2:

 

[jks9199]

Right! And I heard a story once about a rival MC that came upon a tattoo artist that had the orange color. This orange color was used in this tattoo. The MC Man was a Pagan. He looked real hard at that orange ink, and that orange ink went away!

The story goes that at the time, there was a ruckus between the Hell's Angels MC and the Pagans, and things got to the point where there was violent exchanges.

The tattoo artist knew better than to not comply. He made that orange ink go away!

It's not "there was a ruckus between Hells Angels and the Pagans."

There is. A very, very violent and bloody ruckus.

If you get your backpack from an OMG (the club's colors as a tattoo), and something leads to your separating from the club... they will recover those colors. If you're lucky -- they'll use a razor blade. If you're not lucky, it might be an angle grinder, a welding torch, or anything else they figure is appropriate.

And HA, along with Pagans, Outlaws, Bandidos, the Mongols, and most other fair-sized OMGs have trademarked their colors. They're filthy, disgusting, often downright evil, animals (and quite proud of it) -- but they aren't stupid.

 

[Sukerkin]

I can see, I think, what Andy is searching for with his Challenge Coin idea i.e. remove posy external signs of rank but retain the method of checking that someone is certified. It has a certain amount of worth I reckon, certainly better than the 'silly money' grading prices we've heard mentioned elsewhere.

The only true certification is skill in the end, tho'. One of the things I love about the JSA is that we don't use a visible coloured belt system of ranking. We dress the same (generally) and the only ways you can tell someones rank is to either see how the class lines up in a formal setting or how good their swordwork is.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I can see, I think, what Andy is searching for with his Challenge Coin idea i.e. remove posy external signs of rank but retain the method of checking that someone is certified. It has a certain amount of worth I reckon, certainly better than the 'silly money' grading prices we've heard mentioned elsewhere.

The only true certification is skill in the end, tho'. One of the things I love about the JSA is that we don't use a visible coloured belt system of ranking. We dress the same (generally) and the only ways you can tell someones rank is to either see how the class lines up in a formal setting or how good their swordwork is.

*Invisible choir sound*

SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS MEEEEEE!

 

[newGuy12]

*Invisible choir sound*

SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS MEEEEEE!

Haha! Now we understand, too!

Right -- like in the Aikido classes -- you can only discern who has advanced farther by the way people sit in seiza in the beginning. And of course, the BB students with the black coloured hakama!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I can see, I think, what Andy is searching for with his Challenge Coin idea i.e. remove posy external signs of rank but retain the method of checking that someone is certified. It has a certain amount of worth I reckon, certainly better than the 'silly money' grading prices we've heard mentioned elsewhere.

The only true certification is skill in the end, tho'. One of the things I love about the JSA is that we don't use a visible coloured belt system of ranking. We dress the same (generally) and the only ways you can tell someones rank is to either see how the class lines up in a formal setting or how good their swordwork is.

*Invisible choir sound*



SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS MEEEEEE!

Ahh this is why I was missing the point of this, I never think rank or belts anymore. I train and have trained Traditional CMA for a number of years and there are no belts or ranks. And now Sanda as well no belts or ranks. Just time in training, skill and what your Sifu says.

I still think Andy is as crazy as I am for coming uo with this at the Willows and he should seek help before he ends up like me ... but at least I now get what he is saying

That whole hearing things that are not there... this the Invisible choir thing is not a good sign either.. but thay are entertaining.. mine takes requests :uhyeah:

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Hmm.


It appears someone else has done it already:

http://ironclawtraining.com/index.html

Still cool though!