So an interesting thing happened to me today...

[JowGaWolf]

I recently got into a debate with a celebrity "Kung Fu Expert" who doesn't believe in the effectiveness of Traditional Martial Arts he has competed in MMA events and studied TMA and done TV Shows for major TV networks. For someone who has studied so much about Martial Arts, one would think he would be more humble and more open to learning. Which brings me to my recent enlightenment about Kung Fu in respect to my new perspective of it and the problem of it being effective. One word. ARROGANCE

I'm starting to think that too many TMA people make the assumption that just because they know a lot of things that they know everything. I was told that my by this person that my opinion of martial art had no value because I have never competed as a Professional Fight or MMA fight. And that kung fu has no grappling. On top of that he has a Degree in Martial Arts and since I do not have one. I do not know what I'm talking about. Yep. It turns out that they offer Martial Arts Degrees in China. The concept is completely crazy to me unless it's a Degree that is based on the History of Martial arts and not one's actual ability to use the stuff.

If this guy is a representation of what martial arts has become in China then TMA as a valid fighting system will soon be dead in China. The government would have succeeded in killing off martial arts as a fighting system in their country. There will only be pockets of valid fighting martial arts in small villages. If this is what the MMA vs Tai Chi guy is upset about then I can see why he's so pissed off.

Nothing is so disappointing as a TMA martial artist who studies martial arts and never tries to use any of the techniques that he spent a large portion of his life and time in free sparring or sports fighting. I watch his professional fight videos and not a bit of martial arts was done outside the basic kicks, punches found in TMA.

Much respect to all those who actually try to use the techniques they train. Help keep your art alive and don't abandon it, especially if you do a TMA. Don't contribute to the perception that Martial Arts is only good for health and that TMA is useless.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And that kung fu has no grappling.

Kung Fu has grappling and it's called "Chinese wrestling".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kung Fu has grappling and it's called "Chinese wrestling".

You would think someone who has a Degree in Martial arts would know this. Below is a statement he made to me in response and this is when it truly became clear at just how big of an impact China's government has had on the direction of Martial Arts as only being good for health and not for fighting. It makes me wonder just how much Martial arts are they really learning? Are they just learning forms for performances or do they actually understand how to apply martial arts techniques, beyond Sanda.

"the Kung Fu guys trained sperately from san da because they would stand no bloody chance at all in a fight and both the kung fu and san da guys admit that the wrestlers would destroy them and when they would all cross train together in MMA, the shake out was exactly as described above. Shanghai University of Sport Wu Shu Department, class of 2016."

 

[MA_Student]

If that's his opinon he's entitled to it just as you're entitled to yours. If he thinks it's useless that's up to him. I personally don't care at all what people think of the styles I train I just do what I do and let people think what they want

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can agree with your reaction to his arrogance, but I'm curious about this:

Nothing is so disappointing as a TMA martial artist who studies martial arts and never tries to use any of the techniques that he spent a large portion of his life and time in free sparring or sports fighting. I watch his professional fight videos and not a bit of martial arts was done outside the basic kicks, punches found in TMA.

If he used basic kicks and punches, those are techniques from his MA. Why is it disappointing that he didn't use other techniques? I would assume he was using what he found to be most useful. If I were to train for that kind of open competition, there are entire swaths of my art that would not be best suited. Many of them might be useful, but only if the right situation presented (so they are less likely to be seen), while a small core would be very likely to show up on a regular basis.

 

[MA_Student]

I can agree with your reaction to his arrogance, but I'm curious about this:



If he used basic kicks and punches, those are techniques from his MA. Why is it disappointing that he didn't use other techniques? I would assume he was using what he found to be most useful. If I were to train for that kind of open competition, there are entire swaths of my art that would not be best suited. Many of them might be useful, but only if the right situation presented (so they are less likely to be seen), while a small core would be very likely to show up on a regular basis.

Agreed the basic punches and kicks are the main focus of martial arts. All the fancy stuff is good to learn and could be useful but really the basics are the most important things. No one can use everything they learn it's about what works for you. Maybe the op can use stuff from Kung fu more and the guy he's talking about is just more comftorble using his basics. Nothing wrong with that at all in my eyes

 

[MA_Student]

Disagreed with the bold part, what if you do Jujitsu or some other grapling art?

I agree on the part about the basics, my teacher always told me that advanced techniques are just refined basics and polished principles.

This thread is about striking arts so in relation to Kung fu or any other striking it is

 

[MA_Student]

Read the bold part, you suggest it's the basis of all martial arts.

Did I say it's the basis of all martial arts. This thread is about striking martial arts so I was talking about striking arts. Nitpicking much lol

 

[MA_Student]

Maybe specify yourself better next time?

Yes boss

 

[Danny T]

Don't care who it is or what level of fame or skills:
1. Learning a Martial Art is more than just learning to fight & fighting is not learning a martial art.
2. Learning a Martial Art is more than just learning self defense & self defense is not learning a martial art.
3. Learning a Martial Art is more than just becoming fit & becoming fit is not learning a martial art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If that's his opinon he's entitled to it just as you're entitled to yours. If he thinks it's useless that's up to him. I personally don't care at all what people think of the styles I train I just do what I do and let people think what they want

that was his professional opinion based on his studies, his degree in Martial arts, and the books he's written. A lot that he and I discussed sounds very similar to what the Chinese government states about the function and purpose of Martial Arts.

I pretty much told him the same thing that my martial arts training doesn't require that I be an expert. It only requires that I train hard and train honestly.

Stuff like that in relation to my skill set doesn't bother me. For me this is a bigger picture in reference to how knowledge is passed. I'm starting to wonder if if knowing how to fight isn't the real danger that China has feared. I'm starting to think that is the confidence that people get as a by product of knowing how to fight. Everyone that I've met who knows how to fight have strong characters and they are less likely to be intimidated. These are the same things that the MMA guy from the MMA vs Tai Chi displayed. In other countries people may call that independence / freedom/ rights as a citizen, but China is a communist country so maybe it's that spirit that the government tries to crush. I don't know. Maybe I just had a higher expectation of what I thought I would hear from a place that considers themselves to be a university of kung fu.

I would like to see a name, who is this so called celebrity?

I may show his video one day but not in this thread and not in this context. After I read his comment last night I've decided to flush his conversation out of my mind and to focus on more positive stuff that helps me to better understand kung fu specifically and martial arts in general.

If he used basic kicks and punches, those are techniques from his MA. Why is it disappointing that he didn't use other techniques? I would assume he was using what he found to be most useful. If I were to train for that kind of open competition, there are entire swaths of my art that would not be best suited. Many of them might be useful, but only if the right situation presented (so they are less likely to be seen), while a small core would be very likely to show up on a regular basis.

These were basic kicks and punches that aren't defined by a Martial Art System. It was that generic looking kicking and punching. He had some decent wrestling / grappling skills which he used a lot.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've had a chance to speak with a lot of Martial Artist that I would consider to be very knowledgeable in their system and in martial arts in general. I appreciate that you guys stay true to your system and not toss the techniques away as being something that "Doesn't work." It's so important that you as a martial artist keep and spread your knowledge of functional martial arts. Historical European Martial Arts has shown just how difficult it is to get that knowledge back once it's lost. While this post is in reference to martial arts it also applies to other things in life as well. Write your knowledge and understanding of Martial Arts down in a journal, keep it updated and make sure your knowledge and understanding of functional martial arts survives. Don't let it fade into the dark shadow of nothing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Disagreed with the bold part, what if you do Jujitsu or some other grapling art?

I agree on the part about the basics, my teacher always told me that advanced techniques are just refined basics and polished principles.

I think he was referring to the striking arts. It's a reasonable analogue for the basic movements in BJJ, Judo, or any other grappling art, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've had a chance to speak with a lot of Martial Artist that I would consider to be very knowledgeable in their system and in martial arts in general. I appreciate that you guys stay true to your system and not toss the techniques away as being something that "Doesn't work." It's so important that you as a martial artist keep and spread your knowledge of functional martial arts. Historical European Martial Arts has shown just how difficult it is to get that knowledge back once it's lost. While this post is in reference to martial arts it also applies to other things in life as well. Write your knowledge and understanding of Martial Arts down in a journal, keep it updated and make sure your knowledge and understanding of functional martial arts survives. Don't let it fade into the dark shadow of nothing.

This is why I teach martial arts.

It's also why I coach and teach managers.

 

[jobo]

I've had a chance to speak with a lot of Martial Artist that I would consider to be very knowledgeable in their system and in martial arts in general. I appreciate that you guys stay true to your system and not toss the techniques away as being something that "Doesn't work." It's so important that you as a martial artist keep and spread your knowledge of functional martial arts. Historical European Martial Arts has shown just how difficult it is to get that knowledge back once it's lost. While this post is in reference to martial arts it also applies to other things in life as well. Write your knowledge and understanding of Martial Arts down in a journal, keep it updated and make sure your knowledge and understanding of functional martial arts survives. Don't let it fade into the dark shadow of nothing.

but there seems a fair % of doesn't work in a lot of tmas, what is the purpose of retaining such techniques, they won't work just as well in another 50 years

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but there seems a fair % of doesn't work in a lot of tmas, what is the purpose of retaining such techniques, they won't work just as well in another 50 years

There are some techniques in NGA that I teach as "esoteric techniques". They actually work, but you'd never choose them except in some really squirrely instances. Their main use, IMO, is to help train (usually advanced students) in some specific concept. Their practice adds utility to other techniques, so they - though they are taught and practiced as techniques - function as drills in my curriculum. I make sure I explain their purpose to students when they learn them - I don't want them trying to work out how to "get to" those techniques in any realistic fashion.

 

[jobo]

we have spent the last god knows how many weeks, working our way through a higher level kata, 20 odd techniques at one a,week, with out actually counting, i estimate that 50% of them are good usable skills, 25%might be ok if you had the reactions of a cobra and 25% will get you badly hurt.

why are we doing them? They are in the kata, why are they in the kata? Nobody knows, they just are

 

[Tez3]

we have spent the last god knows how many weeks, working our way through a higher level kata, 20 odd techniques at one a,week, with out actually counting, i estimate that 50% of them are good usable skills, 25%might be ok if you had the reactions of a cobra and 25% will get you badly hurt.

why are we doing them? They are in the kata, why are they in the kata? Nobody knows, they just are

Sounds like you need to be looking at what Iain Abernethy does, or at least your instructors do because there's nothing in the katas that should be unless of course your instructors have made their own up or added/subtracted moves from traditional ones.
The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One | Iain Abernethy

 

[jobo]

Sounds like you need to be looking at what Iain Abernethy does, or at least your instructors do because there's nothing in the katas that should be unless of course your instructors have made their own up or added/subtracted moves from traditional ones.
The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One | Iain Abernethy

well that my point, if you are doing TRADITIONAL ma then you do traditional kata and traditional kata contains fantasy moves, if you throw them out, then the knowledge is lost, as was being claimed by the op and it's no longer traditional

 

[JowGaWolf]

but there seems a fair % of doesn't work in a lot of tmas, what is the purpose of retaining such techniques, they won't work just as well in another 50 years

That's why I said "functional martial arts" in my statement. If the technique is only for show and entertainment then those aren't at risk because they don't fall into the scope of "functional martial arts.". Things like that can be made up and often are. It's the real stuff that takes many years to create and with each generation those techniques are improved upon. Those type of things are at risk for being lost. Even the techniques that help train and condition the body, so that the fighting techniques can be functional should be treasured. Once these things are lost then it's like trying to reinvent the wheel, people literally have to start over from scratch to try to figure stuff out. It's not a guarantee that people do today can figure out things from the past. As good as our ability to build tall buildings is, they still can't figure out how pyramids were actually made. Sometimes martial arts is just like that, the knowledge becomes lost for ever and that's a shame. The only thing stuff like that shows is that we (as humans) weren't smart enough to recorded and too dumb to figure it out from scratch after it was lost.