So... about 2 months ago

[TaiChiTJ]

Over the years I have heard people of varying levels of exposure to taiji, hsing-i and bagua make something like the following statement: "The three recognized internal arts are at root all basically the same".

They are and they are not. I remember doing a hsing-i exercise where wood energy is defeated by metal, metal defeated by fire, fire defeated by water, water defeated by earth. Around and around we would go ( teacher had studied with Kenny Gong on the east coast ) endlessly repeating these attack and defense movements. Just going across the room doing one of those elements in a straight line was significantly different than any taiji training I have had.

So the whole thing about them "all being the same thing", makes me wince. The primarily forward energy of hsing-i can be found in taiji, but it is emphasized in hsing-i. Yes, circular aspects of bagua are in taiji too, but not emphasized as much. Taiji works at the opponent "falling into emptiness". Developing that skill is a lifelong challenge, and many teachers, even on the mainland from what I gather, have practiced hsing-i and bagua too. I once read a quote from an acknowledged taiji master that at some point the taiji player must walk the circle with their taiji postures to fully understand. That opened my eyes. I am rambling a bit and have to get back to work.


I hope you find a good balance among the many arts you know, Xue Sheng, for a practice that fits your needs now.
I suspect you will.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Over the years I have heard people of varying levels of exposure to taiji, hsing-i and bagua make something like the following statement: "The three recognized internal arts are at root all basically the same".

They are and they are not. I remember doing a hsing-i exercise where wood energy is defeated by metal, metal defeated by fire, fire defeated by water, water defeated by earth. Around and around we would go ( teacher had studied with Kenny Gong on the east coast ) endlessly repeating these attack and defense movements. Just going across the room doing one of those elements in a straight line was significantly different than any taiji training I have had.

So the whole thing about them "all being the same thing", makes me wince. The primarily forward energy of hsing-i can be found in taiji, but it is emphasized in hsing-i. Yes, circular aspects of bagua are in taiji too, but not emphasized as much. Taiji works at the opponent "falling into emptiness". Developing that skill is a lifelong challenge, and many teachers, even on the mainland from what I gather, have practiced hsing-i and bagua too. I once read a quote from an acknowledged taiji master that at some point the taiji player must walk the circle with their taiji postures to fully understand. That opened my eyes. I am rambling a bit and have to get back to work.


I hope you find a good balance among the many arts you know, Xue Sheng, for a practice that fits your needs now.
I suspect you will.

There is a lot more to Xingyiquan than the 5 elements theory and straight line, there are angles, circles, animal forms and internal training too. But with that said I would say that Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua are similar but not the same, although I do understand and appreciate what you are saying and I have heard the same

My taijiquan sifu (trained in and from China) does not believe you need Xingyi or Bagua to train taijiquan. As a matter of fact he feels Xingyi is so different it could be detrimental to training Taijiquan. But he does feel bagua is "similar" but not the same. But then he also sees similarities between Good Aikido and Taiji too, but again they are not the same. My Shigong only trained Taijiquan, 2 different styles of Taiji but still only Taiji and his teachers were only Taiji people as well.

As for balance between them, likely will not happen, It is more likely that some are simply just going to go away.

 

[colemcm]

My Sifu also held the same belief about Xing Yi and often talked about similarities between Tai Chi and Judo/Jujitsu.

I have a tendency to view the arts as personalities of their own. Some you get along with and others you don't. Sometimes an art just isn't a good fit. Kind of like forcing a friendship with someone you're ambivalent about.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My Sifu also held the same belief about Xing Yi and often talked about similarities between Tai Chi and Judo/Jujitsu.

I have a tendency to view the arts as personalities of their own. Some you get along with and others you don't. Sometimes an art just isn't a good fit. Kind of like forcing a friendship with someone you're ambivalent about.

My Taiji sifu has also seen similarities in the Judo, but he is talking about what he has seen from Kyuzo Mifune

 

[Instructor]

"Without change, something sleeps inside us and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken!"

Frank Herbert

 

[colemcm]

My Taiji sifu has also seen similarities in the Judo, but he is talking about what he has seen from Kyuzo Mifune

Mifune's exactly the individual my Sifu was referring to also.

I think that with an art like Ba Gua it's easy to see how they're similar, since it can incorporate so many disparate styles within it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And then it began just as quickly as it ended

I was standing in Zhan zhuang and that went into the first part of the Yang long form which went into the beginning of the Chen 18 form and ended with a bit of Chen Silk reeling.

Not sure if I will want to do taiji again tomorrow but for the first time in months I did some tonight and enjoyed it

Don't know why it stopped and I don't know why it started

 

[yak sao]

And then it began just as quickly as it ended

I was standing in Zhan zhuang and that went into the first part of the Yang long form which went into the beginning of the Chen 18 form and ended with a bit of Chen Silk reeling.

Not sure if I will want to do taiji again tomorrow but for the first time in months I did some tonight and enjoyed it

Don't know why it stopped and I don't know why it started

Maybe it never really stopped, it was just simmering for a while.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe it never really stopped, it was just simmering for a while.

Could be, time will tell

 

[zzj]

My Taiji sifu has also seen similarities in the Judo, but he is talking about what he has seen from Kyuzo Mifune

Yep, the similarity is definitely there. Makes me wonder if I would have done better in my Judo if I had some prior grounding in Taijiquan.

 

[greytowhite]

Aye, about three years ago I was practicing Chen Xiaowang's 38 form and had almost the exact same thing pop up in my head - I don't practice taijiquan any longer. Since I didn't have the cash for a good instructor I started practicing the Yin bagua material posted on YouTube from Andrew Nugent-Head for Lion and Phoenix. Now I'm learning xingyi and it's so different from the taiji I've learned I would say that if it was a family tree I'd put them as cousins instead of siblings.

 

[Buka]

Xue, this past year I stopped sparring. I hadn't done it for a couple of months and suddenly realized I didn't want to anymore. I can't say I miss it. I continued rolling for a while, but that stopped some months ago, too. Can't say I miss that, either.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have not really sparred in a while either, I have not missed it, but I will say it was rather cool when I did. I have work on applications and been knocked down and thrown on the floor, but I have not really sparred in a while.

But since I started working on Taiji again things have been going well. I have had my head turned a bit by Yiquan, but it has not distracted me from taiji and it is enjoyable to train again and still

 

[greytowhite]

I've been interested in the Han shi line of Yiquan ever since I saw this video.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Yiquan I recently had the chance to train a little was with Wang Rengang who was a student of Wang Xiangzhai

 

[Dylan9d]

Any takes on Taikiken? Seem to be Japanese Yiquan?

Combat science - the Taikiken pages- Kenichi Sawai

 

[Xue Sheng]

Any takes on Taikiken? Seem to be Japanese Yiquan?

Combat science - the Taikiken pages- Kenichi Sawai

It allegedly comes from Yiquan. Kenichi Sawai is the founder of Taikiken and Kenichi Sawai is assumed to have been a student of Yiquan, but not a student of Wang Xiangzhai. Kenichi Sawai was trained "only" buy Yao Zongxun, one of Wang Xiangzhai and likely Wang's successor

 

[mograph]

Yeah. As the story goes, Wang, er, demonstrated his skill to Sawai, impressing the latter to take up Yiquan. But as you wrote, Yao taught Sawai.