SKK - Bunkai

[Jonny Figgis]

Hi

This is for all SKK people out there.

How many of you study of bunkai of the pinans? As we know, the SKK pinans are based on Okinawan kata developed back in the early 1900s and modified throughout the years. There are four aspects of training the pinans, these being:

Solo Performance
Bunkai
Variations of techniques within the pinans
Live Practise

For more on this, please read:
http://www.themartialarchive.com/ar...ese-arts/196-the-four-stages-of-kata-practise

It would interest me greatly to hear how other SKK people train the pinans and if they follow the four aspects of pinan/kata training as outlined above.

One last question, why in SKK is there a difference between pinans and katas when essentially they are one and the same. In fact, in traditional karate, they are correctly called Pinan Kata.

I look forward to hearing your comments.

Respectfully


Jonny

 

[DavidCC]

In SKK system generally, there are 2 sets of forms: the Pinan series and the Kata series.

Yes they are all "kata" (if you speak Japanese) but the name "Kata" within SKK refers to the forms that come from George Pesare.

Typically there are multiple levels of application found with forms. At my school, we basically only look at the most obvious applications of each form.

While the forms can be described as fighting systems themselves, we have nearly 100 techniques that make up our fighting system. So, for us the forms aren;t used as libraries of self-defense applications. They are more aobut balance, flow, focus - these kinds of attributes.

If I was "designing" a SKK curricuulum, I would probalby not use these at all. I would use some basics sets that I have seen in some others styles - forms that specifically train certain things (basics) and aren't trying to be encyclopedic.

If you give the Pinans all the attention they could support you would have enough information for an entire system. SO IMHO you don't need both a set of 100+ techniques AND 10+ kata that contain even more applications.

But I train them because I need them for rank within my school LOL I have done some reading and research to find the real applications in these forms, but they are not generally taught at my school.

 

[Jonny Figgis]

Hi David

Many thanks for your comments. It seems that only the surface is scratched when it comes to the pinans/katas but you made a point about your technique base so that makes sense. I've just been reading a lot about the proper study of pinans and how this relates to the overall martial art but I am referring to traditional Okinawan and Japanese martial arts. With this in mind though, I do think that they should be called simply 'forms' like in EPAK as using Okinawan/Japanese terminology seems to be misleading.

Thanks for your input.


Jonny

 

[Jonny Figgis]

Hi David

You mentioned that you did some research into the pinans and katas, can you direct me to this research as I'd love to read up some more on it.

Many thanks



Jonny

 

[marlon]

Hi

This is for all SKK people out there.

How many of you study of bunkai of the pinans? As we know, the SKK pinans are based on Okinawan kata developed back in the early 1900s and modified throughout the years. There are four aspects of training the pinans, these being:

Solo Performance
Bunkai
Variations of techniques within the pinans
Live Practise

For more on this, please read:
http://www.themartialarchive.com/ar...ese-arts/196-the-four-stages-of-kata-practise

It would interest me greatly to hear how other SKK people train the pinans and if they follow the four aspects of pinan/kata training as outlined above.


I look forward to hearing your comments.

Respectfully


Jonny

yes.

marlon

 

[DavidCC]

Hi David

You mentioned that you did some research into the pinans and katas, can you direct me to this research as I'd love to read up some more on it.

Many thanks



Jonny

well, mostly I talked to people who learned them as part of some karate training

Also this book is a good start

Bunkai-Jutsu: The Practical Application of Karate Kata

 

[Jonny Figgis]

Thanks for the information David, I've been in correspondence with Iain Abernethy a bit over the past couple of years. All the posts here have helped.

 

[KempoBlackbelt]

Hello,

We also study bunkai at our school. I was unable to connect to the file you had listed. It indicated file was not available.

Thank you

 

[ackks10]

Hi

This is for all SKK people out there.

How many of you study of bunkai of the pinans? As we know, the SKK pinans are based on Okinawan kata developed back in the early 1900s and modified throughout the years. There are four aspects of training the pinans, these being:

Solo Performance
Bunkai
Variations of techniques within the pinans
Live Practise

For more on this, please read:
http://www.themartialarchive.com/ar...ese-arts/196-the-four-stages-of-kata-practise

It would interest me greatly to hear how other SKK people train the pinans and if they follow the four aspects of pinan/kata training as outlined above.

One last question, why in SKK is there a difference between pinans and katas when essentially they are one and the same. In fact, in traditional karate, they are correctly called Pinan Kata.

I look forward to hearing your comments.

Respectfully





Jonny

I have a question,if you guys do SKK,than why do you call the forms Pinan??,and why do you use the term,Bunkai?? that's not Chinese,but SK is,
or at lease the name is,now i knew Mr Cerio very well (GBHS) and i know what he was doing,but when you hear the two names togerher SK,Bunkai Pinan,well it's like putting peanut Butter on a good steak,they just don't go together. I mean no disrespect here, but think about it.

 

[Rabu]

Now I have to try peanut butter on steak, you monster.

I have never met any practitioners who had the same bunkai from the Villari styled Penan/Pinan, whatever you call them.

I can tell you that they dont match the Japanese sets at all, and most of the people I talked to within SKK when I was there simply stated to me that they never taught application from forms.

I also noted that there was a large amount of 'genetic drift' from east coast to midwest and west coast practitioners. Hard to have bunkai, based on SET patterns when the patterns themselves change over distance and time.

I also cannot reach the form you linked, it would be interesting to see what was being claimed now as opposed to the late 80's and early 90's.

If you want to get out of the terminology wars, simply use english terms and equivalents:

Foundation
Form
Function
Principle

Instead of:

Kihon
Kata
Waza
Bunkai

Best of luck on your journey, hope you find the answers I couldnt squeeze out of them in the time I was there.

Rob

 

[ackks10]

Now I have to try peanut butter on steak, you monster.

I have never met any practitioners who had the same bunkai from the Villari styled Penan/Pinan, whatever you call them.

I can tell you that they dont match the Japanese sets at all, and most of the people I talked to within SKK when I was there simply stated to me that they never taught application from forms.

I also noted that there was a large amount of 'genetic drift' from east coast to midwest and west coast practitioners. Hard to have bunkai, based on SET patterns when the patterns themselves change over distance and time.

I also cannot reach the form you linked, it would be interesting to see what was being claimed now as opposed to the late 80's and early 90's.

If you want to get out of the terminology wars, simply use english terms and equivalents:

Foundation
Form
Function
Principle

Instead of:

Kihon
Kata
Waza
Bunkai

Best of luck on your journey, hope you find the answers I couldnt squeeze out of them in the time I was there.

Rob

Let me how it taste

 

[ackks10]

i hate typing!!! let's try this again

Let me know how it taste:barf:

 

[punisher73]

From what I have read, the term "Pinan" was chosen to show the karate roots of the Shaolin Kempo KARATE part of the style, the harder, more linear.

Pinan One is Taikyoku (sp?) from Shotokan.
Pinan Two is the same, but has tweaks and touches from Nick Cerio on it, although it follows the same pattern.

I'm not sure of the other 3 and their origins or what they were based on.

The katas were created and showed the more fluid aspect of the style and were given the different name to differentiate the material created by George Presare and the material later added by Nick Cerio.

Since, the pinans are based on japanese kata, I don't think it would be completely wrong to use the term bunkai, but it would be alot easier to just say "application".

 

[Matt]

I have a question,if you guys do SKK,than why do you call the forms Pinan??,and why do you use the term,Bunkai?? that's not Chinese,but SK is,
or at lease the name is,now i knew Mr Cerio very well (GBHS) and i know what he was doing,but when you hear the two names togerher SK,Bunkai Pinan,well it's like putting peanut Butter on a good steak,they just don't go together. I mean no disrespect here, but think about it.

As I'm sure anyone familiar with the forms knows, the pinan forms in SKK are based (sometimes loosely) on the Pinan forms / Heian forms of Karate. Not to beat this dead horse :deadhorse, but number one in SKK is essentially the taikyoku (or fukyugata) shodan kata, two is based on the same pattern but is a creation of Nick Cerio, and 3,4 and 5 actually resemble pinans 3,4, and 5 fairly strongly.

The term pinan is used, as that is what the folks learned at their schools. It is at least as accurate as calling them 'Heian'.

Bunkai is the term, because that is the term for finding the applications of Okinawan / Japanese terms. If the students find a book on the bunkai of pinan sandan, they will find a host of useful ideas on their three pinan. Perhaps it's referencing the 'karate' part of Shaolin Kempo Karate, and not the 'Shaolin' part. Doesn't seem too obtuse to me.

I don't think too many folks who know me will accuse me of being a true believer / koolaid drinker for the published history of Fred Villari's Shaolin Kempo, nor do I see any particular Shaolin influence, but that's not the issue when analyzing the pinan series.

Also, I wouldn't knock the peanut butter on steak thing 'til I've tried it.

 

[Matt]

Yep, looks nothing like pinan sandan.