Should you have to be Kukkiwon certified to compete at the world level?

[troubleenuf]

This is a question I have especially when it comes to the Olympic team. Why does the US team have to be certified and or recognized by a foreign goverment in order to make our team for the Olympics? Im betting if someone pushed the issue the USOC would throw it right out the window along with the rest of the world.

 

[Tony49]

I have wondered that as well. But if you go down this road then the next question arises why do you have to have a black belt at all? I use to belong to WEKAF and all you need to compete at the World Tournament was to belong to WEKAF win at regional than nationals. You didn't even have to have a black belt.

 

[puunui]

This is a question I have especially when it comes to the Olympic team. Why does the US team have to be certified and or recognized by a foreign goverment in order to make our team for the Olympics? Im betting if someone pushed the issue the USOC would throw it right out the window along with the rest of the world.

Go for it. Push it with the USOC and let us know what happens.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I have wondered that as well. But if you go down this road then the next question arises why do you have to have a black belt at all?

I always thought it was odd. For me to represent my country at the Olympics in the marathon, I could train all by myself, show up at a race and run 2:15. I could then show up at say the Boston Marathon and set a new world record, and then I would be off to the Olympics.

In TKD, I have to pay someone about $3000 (2-3 years for a black belt) plus learn unrelated things (patterns are arbitrary - someone at some point just decided the sequence) before I am even allowed to compete in the tournaments that would qualify me to get to the Olympics.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I always thought it was odd. For me to represent my country at the Olympics in the marathon, I could train all by myself, show up at a race and run 2:15. I could then show up at say the Boston Marathon and set a new world record, and then I would be off to the Olympics.

In TKD, I have to pay someone about $3000 (2-3 years for a black belt) plus learn unrelated things (patterns are arbitrary - someone at some point just decided the sequence) before I am even allowed to compete in the tournaments that would qualify me to get to the Olympics.

I couldnt agree more. As long as someone shows up, fights within the rules with good manner and wins who could care less whether they have a cert from any organisation. Your marathon analogy is spot on, I am training currently for a marathon later this year and I am training by myself and will show up to the race and funnily enough I dont need a piece of paper to enter the event, if Im good enough, Im good enough. Just think of the thousands of highly competent tkdists out there who cant enter these competitions because their club, like thousands of others, is not affiliated with the kukkiwon. In my opinion, if you think you are good enough you should be able to roll up and compete, providing you stay within the set rule set. But then big orgs cant make any money if that is the case now can they?

 

[msmitht]

Yes, Absolutley.
If I wanted to compete at the itf world championship I am sure that I would have to be an itf black belt. I am sure it is the same in shotokan, judo, jiu jitsu...etc.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes, Absolutley.
If I wanted to compete at the itf world championship I am sure that I would have to be an itf black belt. I am sure it is the same in shotokan, judo, jiu jitsu...etc.

I dont really have an issue with having to have a black belt, but then if someone isnt a black belt they will probably get found out quickly enough anyway. I just find it odd that your black belt has to be through a certain organisation. It just seems logical to me that a "tkd competition" should be open to all people who participate in tkd and not just some of the tkd population. I can understand ITF being different because they fight using a different ruleset, but if an ITF fighter wanted to go in a WTF competition I dont see the problem, providing he fights by the WTF rules. But then again most, if not all, tkdists who are not eligible really have no interest in competing anyway, so it probably doesnt really matter.

 

[terryl965]

Well Arlene Limas was not a TKD black belt and she made the Olympic team but back then it was different. Today it reallyis not about the athletes itis about how much money these orgs can get from you or yourparents for the oppunity which is very slim since you needto belong to the right performance camps or individual to even get afair shake in the whole process. Go sport TKD you are on yor way to failure once again by the NGB that tookover for the previous NGB, man I love the whole thing and believe it is the best soap opera in the world (as the kicks turns). God Bless society and those that have the true vision of what I have o ideal......:erg:

 

[miguksaram]

Well Arlene Limas was not a TKD black belt and she made the Olympic team but back then it was different.

I do not believe that is entirely true. Glenn might be able to fill in details, but I do believe Arlene Limas did have a TKD black belt prior to Olympics. I do know she was a black belt in Kung Fu and one of the top point fighters of her time too.

 

[miguksaram]

This is a question I have especially when it comes to the Olympic team. Why does the US team have to be certified and or recognized by a foreign goverment in order to make our team for the Olympics? Im betting if someone pushed the issue the USOC would throw it right out the window along with the rest of the world.

Don't you have to be certified through Kodokan in order to compete in world Judo tournaments and the Olympics? Also, prior to government take over last year, the KKW was not a government facility. So to say you had to be recognized by a foreign government is erroneous. The Korean government did not have to recognize your rank at all.

 

[miguksaram]

In TKD, I have to pay someone about $3000 (2-3 years for a black belt) plus learn unrelated things (patterns are arbitrary - someone at some point just decided the sequence) before I am even allowed to compete in the tournaments that would qualify me to get to the Olympics.

So your view point would hold true if say wushu made the Olympics? You don't have to train with anyone just learn the patterns and show up? Judo should revert to the same thing. Just someone show up and if they win they win.

What other unrelated things outside of patterns are you learning?

Plus if we are going on simply on the statute of self training, why should fencers, skaters and hockey players pay that much money to be trained (Which can exceed far more than $3000 in just 2-3 years)? Who do they have to certify with in order to compete in international competition? Or do they just show up as well?

 

[dancingalone]

Don't you have to be certified through Kodokan in order to compete in world Judo tournaments and the Olympics?

Apparently not. You have to be a member of your national governing body which is affiliated with the International Judo Federation (originally comprised of European countries + Argentina). And you must be a 1st dan through an IJF recognized group, likely again the NGBs.

http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html

 

[troubleenuf]

If I remember right there was a big stink about Arlene not being certified after she won her spot. It went on for a while until one of the Korean masters stepped up and got her a certificate thus ending the problem.

I do not believe that is entirely true. Glenn might be able to fill in details, but I do believe Arlene Limas did have a TKD black belt prior to Olympics. I do know she was a black belt in Kung Fu and one of the top point fighters of her time too.

 

[terryl965]

I do not believe that is entirely true. Glenn might be able to fill in details, but I do believe Arlene Limas did have a TKD black belt prior to Olympics. I do know she was a black belt in Kung Fu and one of the top point fighters of her time too.

Arlene did not have a black Belt in TKD when she made the Olympic team to my understanding, could be wrong though. She did train in TKD and learn to fight with the proper rules but she was a point person that was just talented enough to win with the rule set for Olympic TKD.

 

[Archtkd]

I always thought it was odd. For me to represent my country at the Olympics in the marathon, I could train all by myself, show up at a race and run 2:15. I could then show up at say the Boston Marathon and set a new world record, and then I would be off to the Olympics.

In TKD, I have to pay someone about $3000 (2-3 years for a black belt) plus learn unrelated things (patterns are arbitrary - someone at some point just decided the sequence) before I am even allowed to compete in the tournaments that would qualify me to get to the Olympics.

Sometimes it's a good thing to just stick to what you know. Give us the name of one world class marathoner or long distance runner who has done what you describe -- just one.

I come from Kenya -- a country that day in day out produces long and middle distance record breakers. Those athletes you see winning marathons in Chicago, New York, Boston, Olympics, London, etc. start informal training in Kenyan villages they day they literary begin walking. If I was in a Kenyan village now, where my parents were born, my six-year old son would be capable of chasing after run away goats barefoot, through savanah bush, for two to three miles withou a rest. The goats would tire before he does. That is what you might call learning "unrelated things."

When future Kenyan Olympians go to school -- nursery, elementary, secondary and university, which is all publicly funded -- they train in teams and under teachers, who are paid by Kenyan taxpayers. The few athletes who rise above the hundreds of potential Kenyan record breakers go through team selection trials that are tougher than many international races you might know about. The Kenyan government then spends tons of money on the top cream athletes to ensure they get to the right international meets and recieve more training. A number of those athletes even end up here in the U.S on very expensive scholarships -- paid for by Americans -- which fund for additional training and education.

For a little education I sugggest you watch a wonderful docu drama called Endurance, directed by British filmaker Leslie Woodhead. It features and is about Ethiopian Haile Gebreselassie, the greatest long distance runner ever born.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I do not believe that is entirely true. Glenn might be able to fill in details, but I do believe Arlene Limas did have a TKD black belt prior to Olympics. I do know she was a black belt in Kung Fu and one of the top point fighters of her time too.

I recall meeting her shortly after her Olympic win. She appeared at Fred Degerberg's school where I was attending a workshop with Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace, an Joe Lewis. I see she ended up teaching for Jeff Smith for a time.

Anyhoo... I also seem to recall some stories about litigation where she purportedly had to file suit to be allowed to be on the Olympic team. Sadly, I cannot find any internet accounts of this and I have no further details.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

...Give us the name of one world class marathoner or long distance runner who has done what you describe -- just one.

.....For a little education I sugggest you watch a wonderful docu drama called Endurance, directed by British filmaker Leslie Woodhead. It features and is about Ethiopian Haile Gebreselassie, the greatest long distance runner ever born.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I have the ability to do so, just that I am not required to pay someone to be certified.

Gebreselassie is a great example...he was the greatest middle distance runner (e.g., 10 km), but was not a marathon runner. He was paid to run the London marathon, as his first serious marathon. As I recall, he had only one 1 marathon before, as 15 year kid for fun, and ran 2:45. He proceeded to run at London the 3rd fastest marathon time ever! I think the analagy would be he was not a "certified" MARATHON runner (since there is no certification), but still ran the 3rd fastest time ever. Do we need an organisation to say "you're certified - you can enter this tournament"?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What other unrelated things outside of patterns are you learning?

Plus if we are going on simply on the statute of self training, why should fencers, skaters and hockey players pay that much money to be trained (Which can exceed far more than $3000 in just 2-3 years)? Who do they have to certify with in order to compete in international competition? Or do they just show up as well?

Unrelated...various stances (when do you see a tiget stance in sparring), set 1,2,3 step sparring patterns, self defense, etc...I am not saying they are not valuable, but if I were traning for the Olimpics, I would not be doing these exercises.

Sure you realistically need to pay money to train in hockey. But my point is a player is not REQUIRED to be a member of an association to play in the NHL. If a scout sees a great player, he can be drafted to the NHL. In theory he does not have to have ever played in an registered hockey team though.

 

[miguksaram]

I recall meeting her shortly after her Olympic win. She appeared at Fred Degerberg's school where I was attending a workshop with Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace, an Joe Lewis. I see she ended up teaching for Jeff Smith for a time.

Anyhoo... I also seem to recall some stories about litigation where she purportedly had to file suit to be allowed to be on the Olympic team. Sadly, I cannot find any internet accounts of this and I have no further details.

If I remember correctly, they were not allowing her on the team stating that she had pro status due to making money on the open circuit. However, she countered that she had amateur status as a Taekwondo-in and so met the requirements for the team.

 

[miguksaram]

Apparently not. You have to be a member of your national governing body which is affiliated with the International Judo Federation (originally comprised of European countries + Argentina). And you must be a 1st dan through an IJF recognized group, likely again the NGBs.

http://www.fuzilogik.com/Sports-Library/Judo/Judo-Olympic-Qualifying.html

Thanks. I didn't know if that was their requirement or not.