Should "psychic" be refered to as "psychological?"

[GouRonin]

This is something I have been batting around a bit. Often in Systema you hear the concept of psychic use.

I understand that the term means the control of an external object through use of the force of the mind. Now I can grasp that this can be used when you make someone do something by using your mind to make yourself do something but is this true psychic ability? To me that's always been some sort of physical force emanating from one's brain (for lack of a better term) forcing action despite a person physically wanting to do something else.

A lot of law enforcement agencies use psychological "tricks" in their work as do military groups. Is this psychic or more psychological and is the term being misused?

Bear in mind that there are true, (at least in my definition) uses of psychic energy that I have seen but I am not talking about them here.

 

[sweeper]

I would agree psychological is a better word.

 

[Klondike93]

After one of the classes last week, I began to think that what they describe as psychic is actually psychological. We were doing escapes from headlocks and one of the escapes the instructor all he did was put his hand near my lower back and start to squat and down I went. He described it that I was using his hand for support even though it wasn't actually touching me, but I could feel it, or thought I could feel it. Interesting stuff!

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

The Russians (Soviets) investigated psychic phenomena for years. Is it that type of psychic activity that is referred to in addition to the clearly psychological tactics?

I note that Psyops is a fully accpeted aspect of combat nowadays and surely distraction, misdirection, intimidation, etc. all have their places in an hand-to-hand combat situation.

From Vlad Vasiliev's site:

The goal of Stalin's Falcons was to have a system that combined all the best components on all three levels of human abilities - the physical, the psychological and the psychic.

 

[Roland]

But Phsysic would be more 'accurate' I think.

 

[Rich_]

Arnisador - the Soviets did carry out a lot of investigation into 'psychic powers', most worryingly trying to see if they could psychically send launch orders to nuclear submarines carrying ICBMs! However, nothing usable was found.

The stuff I've seen in Russia (ROSS) covers psychological aspects of combat - that is to say using the opponent's mind to one's advantage - but no psychic powers in the sense of extending any energy/influence purely from your own mind. The little psychic stuff I've seen from Systema seems largely to be the former.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks Rich_, that seems reasonable and in fact desirable in an art.

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by GouRonin

This is something I have been batting around a bit. Often in Systema you hear the concept of psychic use.

I understand that the term means the control of an external object through use of the force of the mind. Now I can grasp that this can be used when you make someone do something by using your mind to make yourself do something but is this true psychic ability? To me that's always been some sort of physical force emanating from one's brain (for lack of a better term) forcing action despite a person physically wanting to do something else.

A lot of law enforcement agencies use psychological "tricks" in their work as do military groups. Is this psychic or more psychological and is the term being misused?

Bear in mind that there are true, (at least in my definition) uses of psychic energy that I have seen but I am not talking about them here.

it would be best to let those who created the system set the terms- the soviets definately had massive research into psychic phenomena and are well aware of their usage of the term and its definition.

if they believe that psychic interaction is taking place then whether it have psychological underpinnings or not, isn't that important. when you create a paradigm of the arts adherence to all things taught physical, philosophical, and in this case, psychic can be the difference between mastery and familiarity.

peace.
:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I think I stated that there were uses of psychic energy but I wasn't talking about that branch in relation to the topic I was discussing.

However, the Russians did spend a lot of time dealing with the phenom of that concept. They would do things like try to get people to be able to "feel" colours by touch or to "sense" poisons in water etc.

 

[LOC]

So "Psychic" is just a bad translation. Does anyone know what the Russian word for this is?

 

[Furtry]

There are two terms, one is "psychological" and the other is "consciousness".
As explained by Vlad, in order to be able to do 'psychological" work the person must be "conscious".
Example, if I fake a punch to your face and do it to fast for your consciousness/subconscious to register it then there will be no affect. If I fake the same punch but do it with intent and in a manner that you will register it then it will have an affect. It is best to use these tactics in the persons peripheral field of vision, as the body will react before the brain has had a chance to process and evaluate if the attacks is dangerous or not.

 

[fbrown22]

There are two terms, one is "psychological" and the other is "consciousness".
As explained by Vlad, in order to be able to do 'psychological" work the person must be "conscious".
Example, if I fake a punch to your face and do it to fast for your consciousness/subconscious to register it then there will be no affect. If I fake the same punch but do it with intent and in a manner that you will register it then it will have an affect. It is best to use these tactics in the persons peripheral field of vision, as the body will react before the brain has had a chance to process and evaluate if the attacks is dangerous or not.

Thanks for this post. I've been trying to understand this a bit in order to deal with my own confusion regarding some rather severe criticisms of Systema steming from these techniques. In short, some dismiss the entire art as hocus-pocus because it's touted as imparting "Jedi-powers" on practitioners.

I've been going to Vlad's for about 18 months now. I admit that part of my initial intrigue with Systema stemmed from videos of Mikhail Ryabko performing these techniques.

Cheers!

-FB

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

From Oxford American Dictionary:

psychic adj. 1. of the soul or mind. 2. concerned with processes that seem to be outside physical or natural laws, having or involving extrasensory perception or occult powers. n. a person apparently sussceptible to psychic influences, a medium.

Notice the first definition, so often we only remember or think of the 2nd definition and improperly at that. Simply 'of the soul or mind'. Hence the affect Furty is describing above is psychic as it affects or plays with the persons mind via perception and fear response. Nothing extra ordinary, no bending spoons or other such stuff.

And no the use of the word psychic is not a poor choice of words or a bad translation, it is improper understanding of the word's definition by many.

MJ

 

[still learning]

Hello, "to make someone doing something" ...don't we do this for "faking" or "feinting" and take advantages of this?

...the gift of fear....the minds sees before we can....many times too

...trust your intincts..

Aloha, ....are you thinking of having a beer? ....must be Psychic..

 

[HerbM]

This is something I have been batting around a bit. Often in Systema you hear the concept of psychic use

...

Yes, psychological is likely the accurate term.

The term that was generally used to translate the Russian was 'psyche' not 'psychic'. Psyche meaning the mind, mental powers, etc.

Mikhael Ryabko on the video "Beyond the Physical" explicitly disclaims anything magical or mystical while showing both 'non touch' and 'minimal touch' techniques.

He explains through the interpreter that this is through using an understanding of the mind and perceptive systems to affect the 'psyche' of the attacker.

I have actually never heard any of the senior instructors even imply 'psychic' (i.e., magical) powers even though I have heard this criticism directed at them.

Every instance I have heard referring to such abilities has actually been correctly translated and identified as perceptual tricks and affects on the mind or 'psyche'.

--
HerbM