Shotokon forms

[terryl965]

What forms from the shotokan set was the backbone towards the Tae Guek set. I know they are a world apart frpm the original sets of forms. But I believe they still have some type of influence on the Tae Gueks set and was wondering which ones brought the most to the set.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Or Shotokan

I trained with a shotokan school for a good while and remember one of their forms (bad memory) being very similar to Chon Ji.

 

[terryl965]

Or Shotokan

I trained with a shotokan school for a good while and remember one of their forms (bad memory) being very similar to Chon Ji.

OK but which form do you believe to have the most influence for the Tae Gueks.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

To be honest I think the general consensus on here has been that the Taegueks were designed to bear as little resemblance to shotokan forms as possible.

Sadly, I cant remember enough of shotokan's forms to say either way.

 

[terryl965]

To be honest I think the general consensus on here has been that the Taegueks were designed to bear as little resemblance to shotokan forms as possible.

Sadly, I cant remember enough of shotokan's forms to say either way.

That is Ok I was wondering and trying to start up a converstation in regards to this. Thank you for your help.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Any time. Hopefully be of more use in future!

 

[howard]

Terry,

If you want to see Korean forms that are similar to Shotokan forms, you can check out a school from one of the old kwans that had schools that remained independent when TKD was created. For example, certain Ji Do Kwan or Moo Duk Kwan schools.

There are many Ji Do Kwan forms that have almost exact parallels in Shotokan. For example, Shotokan Taikyoku = Ji Do Kwan Ki Cho; Shotokan Heian = Ji Do Kwan Pyung Ahn; Shotokan Bassai Dai = Ji Do Kwan Bal Sak Hyung; Shotokan Kankudai = Ji Do Kwan Kwan Kong Hyung. There are several more (Shotokan Tekki = Ji Do Kwan Cholgi...).

Sorry, but I'm completely unfamiliar with the Taegeuk forms, so I can't compare them to Shotokan.

Hope this helps.

 

[terryl965]

Terry,

If you want to see Korean forms that are similar to Shotokan forms, you can check out a school from one of the old kwans that had schools that remained independent when TKD was created. For example, certain Ji Do Kwan or Moo Duk Kwan schools.

There are many Ji Do Kwan forms that have almost exact parallels in Shotokan. For example, Shotokan Taikyoku = Ji Do Kwan Ki Cho; Shotokan Heian = Ji Do Kwan Pyung Ahn; Shotokan Bassai Dai = Ji Do Kwan Bal Sak Hyung; Shotokan Kankudai = Ji Do Kwan Kwan Kong Hyung. There are several more (Shotokan Tekki = Ji Do Kwan Cholgi...).

Sorry, but I'm completely unfamiliar with the Taegeuk forms, so I can't compare them to Shotokan.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your input I'am formialer with these form but was interested in the Tae Gueks and the connection.

 

[Makalakumu]

Terry, have you found any video of these forms on the web? Or do you have any? It would help everyone who is not really familiar with taeguecks to evaluate them.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, have you found any video of these forms on the web? Or do you have any? It would help everyone who is not really familiar with taeguecks to evaluate them.

Yes go to this website www.twindragontkd.com and go to the picture page and hit the ones that say TaeGuek 1-8 and that should help you. Thanks

 

[WMKS Shogun]

While there are some easy to spot similarities between the Chang Hon Tuls and Shotokan Katas (Heien Nidan and Won Hyo, Tekki Shodan and Po-Eun, etc.) But as far as the Taeguk poomse are concerned, the order of moves and such has changed to such a degree that it is almost like the picked moves here and there from the Heien, Tekki, Bassai, Kanku, etc. To make a somewhat politically incorrect comparison Taeguks are like a severely dislexic version of the Shotokan katas. (The Palgwe and Chang Hon would be mildly dislexic). The fact of the matter is the Taeguk forms were created to help remedy the 'problem' of people comparing Tae Kwon Do to Karate.

 

[CuongNhuka]

In our Cuong Nhu we have three students who have a backround in Tae Kwon Do. Cuong Nhu is based heavily on Shotokan. One of our Black Belts has a really hard time learning our forms because so many of them have a very similar feel. By the way, she is a fith Dan in Tae Kwon Do. Anouther is a Green Belt in Cuong Nhu (about a third of the way to Black), and a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. She has the same problem of learning new forms.
We have a new student who has a had a bit of training in a few styles (Tae Kwon Do, Jodokdo [based off Jeet Kune Do], a few other things). His first class I had to teach him the first form (TaeKyoKu Shodan, we call it Kata 1). He said before i began "Can I just ask one question? Is this going to be a low block, then punch, and so on in an 'I' pattern". I said "Yah, you know a form like that? Well, thats a place to start, lets see it". The form was exactly the same expect for two things. Differnit load, and the punch was higher then what we do. I have seen my Sensei's nephew (who trains in Tang Soo Do) do exactly the same form, in exactly the same way as this new student.
So, even if there are no direct form translations, there are alot of similarities.

 

[Miles]

There are elements of many Shotokan kata in the Taeguek series. If you just look at heian/pyong ahn 1, the first combination is a low block and then front punch. You see this in Taeguek 1 at the end.

The next "combination" in heian 1 is a low block which is pulled back and ends up a counter to a wrist grab with a downward hammer-fist strike. This is present in Taeguek 5.

But there are also differences: in Taeguek 1 there is a low block, reverse punch combination you do not see in the Heians. In Heian 1 you have 3 straight high blocks up to the turn and 3 straight middle section punches on the way back. Taeguek 2 has something similar-3 straight front kicks and front punches.

Taeguek 6 has roundhouse kicks. There are no roundhouse kicks in the Heians.

Taeguek 4 introduces the concept of returning your kicking leg to its original position. This concept is not present in the Heian series.

Maybe someone with more experience in the Heian/Pyong Ahns will see more similarities and differences but this is a start just off the top of my head.

Miles

 

[WMKS Shogun]

I am less familiar with the Taeguk series than I am the Pyung Ahn's, etc. Seriously though, the Taeguks were intentially created to be as dissimilar to karate (particularly Shotokan) as possible.

 

[rmclain]

What forms from the shotokan set was the backbone towards the Tae Guek set. I know they are a world apart frpm the original sets of forms. But I believe they still have some type of influence on the Tae Gueks set and was wondering which ones brought the most to the set.

Hi Terry,

You said you studied Okinawan karate from your father. I suppose you learned a version of the Pyung Ahn forms and your son demonstrated aversion of Bassai Tae when I visited your school. You should be able to look at the Tae Gueks yourself and find some similar movements from the karate forms.


R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

Hi Terry,

You said you studied Okinawan karate from your father. I suppose you learned a version of the Pyung Ahn forms and your son demonstrated aversion of Bassai Tae when I visited your school. You should be able to look at the Tae Gueks yourself and find some similar movements from the karate forms.


R. McLain

Yes I can Master McLain, but I would love to see other people views and not just my own. We can only grow as Martial Artist with the wisdom from others, to stop asking and learning from others is a mistake. This is a board where question can be ask for more enlightment of ourself.
Terry

 

[rmclain]

Yes I can Master McLain, but I would love to see other people views and not just my own. We can only grow as Martial Artist with the wisdom from others, to stop asking and learning from others is a mistake. This is a board where question can be ask for more enlightment of ourself.
Terry

The "wisdom" of others is helpful, but you need to forge yourself through a strong foundation in core principles of what you are studying. With this foundation, you can find "wisdom" for yourself through hard work and sweat. When looking for "wisdom" from others (there is alot out there), you need to be able to discern between "wisdom" and "majority rambling."

Most of those people involved with the creation of the Tae Guek forms are still alive. Perhaps you should ask them which Shotokan forms they used as influence for their 1974 Tae Guek creations.

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

The "wisdom" of others is helpful, but you need to forge yourself through a strong foundation in core principles of what you are studying. With this foundation, you can find "wisdom" for yourself through hard work and sweat. When looking for "wisdom" from others (there is alot out there), you need to be able to discern between "wisdom" and "majority rambling."

Most of those people involved with the creation of the Tae Guek forms are still alive. Perhaps you should ask them which Shotokan forms they used as influence for their 1974 Tae Guek creations.

R. McLain

Master Mc Lain this thread is gear toward decussion of the similarities of the Shotokon and Tae Gueks poomsae and what msot people believe this is. I just like starting threads that may have some merits in the long run.