Shotokan Karate

TimoS

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kishoto said:
there is no true shotokan style.

At least not in the sense that there are many "factions" that most, if not all, claim to be teaching the one true Shotokan that Funakoshi himself taught. I guess the JKA Shotokan is the "main line", but wasn't it modified by Nakayama and others after Funakoshi's death ?
 

RRouuselot

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TimoS said:
At least not in the sense that there are many "factions" that most, if not all, claim to be teaching the one true Shotokan that Funakoshi himself taught. I guess the JKA Shotokan is the "main line", but wasn't it modified by Nakayama and others after Funakoshi's death ?

This is true.

After Funakoshis death Nakayama and several other groups got together and tried to standardize the kata in order to have tournaments that all groups could participate in.
 

GAB

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Hi RobertR.

I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...

Have you read that and if so? Any thoughts as to where and who really wrote these words of wisdom??? Have they been around since the time of the early Chinese Scholars with a different twist???Or???

GM James Mitose even has a book that was published after his death that was similar...
Regards, Gary
 

tshadowchaser

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Not to disrupt this thread but if you wish to disscuss GAB's last post please start a different thread. This thread has been running pretty smoothly with Shotokan as the topic lets keep it that way
 

GAB

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Hi tshadowchaser,

Could you suggest how else I would have asked this question other then in this thread??? I thank you for the advice...

Regards, Gary
 

RRouuselot

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GAB said:
Hi RobertR.

I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...

Have you read that and if so? Any thoughts as to where and who really wrote these words of wisdom??? Have they been around since the time of the early Chinese Scholars with a different twist???Or???

GM James Mitose even has a book that was published after his death that was similar...
Regards, Gary
Tshadowchaser,

No disrespect but this is the first post in this thread:

do you study the teachings of gichin funakoshi?

what is your favorite aspect of the art?

your toughts and input are greatly appreciated

Given that these were part of Funakoshi's teachings I dont think GABs question was off topic.

GAB said:
Hi RobertR.

I have read a few of Gichin Funakoshi's Books or 'translations'...One of them is a short one that pops up in quite a few of the various Katate schools with different names or interpretations...The Twenty guiding Principles of Karate...

Have you read that and if so? Any thoughts as to where and who really wrote these words of wisdom??? Have they been around since the time of the early Chinese Scholars with a different twist???Or???

GM James Mitose even has a book that was published after his death that was similar...
Regards, Gary
I was under the impression that Bushi Matsumura was a possible author.

Karate is not only dojo training.

Don't forget that Karate begins with a bow and ends with a bow.

In Karate, never attack first.

One who practices Karate must follow the way of justice

First you must know yourself. Then you can know others.

Spiritual development is paramount; technical skills are merely means to the end.

You must release your mind

Misfortune comes out of laziness.

Karate is a lifelong training.

Put Karate into everything you do.

Karate is like hot water. If you do not give heat constantly it will again become cold.

Do not think you have to win. Think that you do not have to lose.

Victory depends on your ability to tell vulnerable points from invulnerable ones.

Move according to your opponent.

Consider your opponent's hands and legs as you would sharp swords.

When you leave home, think that millions of opponents are waiting for you.

Ready position for beginners and natural position for advanced students.

Kata is one thing. Engaging in a real fight is another.

Do not forget (1)strength and weakness of power, (2)expansion and contraction of the body, (3)slowness and speed of techniques.

Devise at all times.
Niju_Kun.gif
 
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Sam

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I have to admit that I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge of the history of Shotokan. I looked through the whole thread and didn't see the following info anywhere. If this was posted earlier, I apologize.
This is the readers digest condensed version

Funakoshi learned Shuri-Te as did the founders of Shorin-Ryu. The Heian kata are actually modified versions of the Pinan kata.

The name Shotokan DID come from the name Funakoshi gave his dojo. The Japanese are big on naming styles and lineages. Funakoshi simply called what he taught Kara Te. So people started calling it Shotokan as that was the name of the home dojo.

Back to Shotokan development. Some of the modifications to Shotokan were due to mainland Japanese influence. Those who have Karatedo Kyohan, look at the pictures of Funakoshi- his stances are shorter and higher than shotokan stances. This is not because he was old. The stances were deepened, in part by his Japanese students due to the influence of kendo in Japanese society. (The same thing happened to Japanese Goju under Yamaguchi)

In addition, some things were modified to allow competition between University Clubs, something Funakoshi allowed, although he was not happy with it.

When Funakoshi died Nakayama was named to head the JKA. At this point a fracture already started to occur, Tsutomu Oshima was taching in the US. The JKA started making further modifications and he refused to accept them, so he started the SKA.

Later, internal disagreements occured and more fracturing took place. Nishiyama and Kanazawa broke away and formed their own Shotokan organizations. This continued among senior Japanese teachers for one reason or another, and more offshoots were created. Ryobu-Kai was formed under Yamazaki. Wado-ryu was formed to include some principles from Aikido. This splitting continues until this day.

In the US another problem occured. There was the issue that, for years, the JKA refused to rank any non-Japanese higher than 5th dan. A good example of someone that was shortchanged for years is Ray Dalke. This caused more fracturing as people deserving promotion were not promoted while Japanese with less experience and sometimes ability were promoted past them.

Today, who knows how many offshoots of Shotokan there are. The same can be said of virtually any art. As an aside, someone thought Shito-ryu was related to Shotokan. Actually, Shito-ryu is basically a combination of Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. Also, someone mentioned Shorin-Ryu and Shorinji-ryu as if they were the same style. They aren't. There are vast differences in the two.

This info is gleaned from several sources. Never trust just one source when studying martial art lineages as too many people try to establish themselves as the "one true heir", so will slant the history in their favor.
 

TimoS

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Sam said:
Wado-ryu was formed to include some principles from Aikido.

That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu

Also, someone mentioned Shorin-Ryu and Shorinji-ryu as if they were the same style. They aren't. There are vast differences in the two.

Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.
 

GAB

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Hi all,

I have a couple of books that were written by Jose M. Fraguas, Published right in big old downtown Burbank CA...:) Old joke on tv. Area of my youth...

Karate Masters and the Masters Speak...Both are full of good information, but...quite a few typos and Ego..I give it a B if I was critiquing...

But it does put lots of information at your disposal if you want to know what came from where and so forth. One thing I was glad to see was a reference to Chito Ryu and Shi-to Ryu and why the name is that and so forth, sort of like Shih-Tzu.

In English we still have a hard time getting by words that look odd so we make fun of them...I remember when I was still on the Kenpo net board and they would delete the word Shito, because they had no knowledge and they just did it...

I will say one thing about Martialtalk lots of information and you don't need to buy a bunch of books either....Cuts down on some of the various reading material, the problem, I don't have a lap top...So the books...

Regards, Gary
 
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Sam

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TimoS said:
That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu
Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.
I stand corrected- although I've actually hada Wado-Ryu instructor tell me it was Aikido.

The Shorinji Ryu I'm refering to is the style currently going by that name, which is Shorinji Ryu taught by Richard Kim, and Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji Ryu. These are different from Seibukan Shorin-Ryu
 

TimoS

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Sam said:
I stand corrected- although I've actually hada Wado-Ryu instructor tell me it was Aikido.

Interesting. As far as I remember the founder of Wado ryu, Hironori Ohtsuka was a supposedly a high ranking jujutsu teacher in Shindo Yoshin ryu before he started studying karate.

The Shorinji Ryu I'm refering to is the style currently going by that name, which is Shorinji Ryu taught by Richard Kim, and Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji Ryu. These are different from Seibukan Shorin-Ryu

Oh yes, of course. You know, I actually thought you might be referring to Richard Kim's Shorinji right after I pressed submit, but I was feeling too lazy edit my post :)

Sakugawa Koshiki Shorinji ryu I'm not at all familiar with. I'm fairly sure I've heard the name before, but that is all. There are so many different Shorin and Shorinji schools out there that it gets a bit hard to follow them all :)
 

RRouuselot

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TimoS said:
1) That was news to me. I was under the impression that it was jujutsu



Yes and no. E.g. Shorin ryu Seibukan was at some stage in it's history called Shorinji ryu. So the difference isn't necessarily that big between the two.

Your right it was jujutsu. Ohtsuka the founder of Wado was a 6th dan in jujutsu.

Much of what SAM wrote has been discussed so many times already that its kind of like a broken record.
 
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kishoto

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Seems like most of you want to put down shotokan karate. WHY. I have studied shotokan for 38 years it is my primary style. I have also trained in many other styles creating a style that combines all but shotokan is my foundation. Dont put down what you dont understand because there are no pure styles.(o bye the way there is no such thing as shotokan that was funakoshi first dojo in japan) study the history before making a statement. kishoto
 

BlackCatBonz

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while shotokan was indeed the name of funakoshi's school........the name has since become synonymous with the method he taught.
 

RRouuselot

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kishoto said:
Seems like most of you want to put down shotokan karate. WHY. I have studied shotokan for 38 years it is my primary style.

1) I have also trained in many other styles creating a style that combines all but shotokan is my foundation.

2) Dont put down what you dont understand because there are no pure styles.3) o bye the way there is no such thing as shotokan that was funakoshi first dojo in japan) study the history before making a statement. kishoto
1) Uh?????

2) Some of us have trained in Shotokan.some of us have trained at the Honbu in Japan with the head teachers there..so some of us have a pretty good insight as to what Shotokan is.

3) Looks like you are the one that needs to read their history. It was the name Funakoshi used to sign his calligraphy with and then the name his students called his first dojo but later Funakoshi himself used the name shotokan for his style.


Birthday:
February 14, 1955

Real Name:
Randell Kitchens

Location:
Mississippi

Primary Art and Ranking:
kishoto ryu kenpo 9th black

Interests:
martial arts

Arts:
shotokan,kenpo,jujitsu

Training:
38 years of training, founder of ki shoto ryu kenpo, head of one organization advisor to several more, inducted into world head of family sokeship hall of fame

Organizations:
magnolia shotokan federation, magnolia martial arts association,ozark mountion karate association



I see in your profile that you are a member of the infamous mutual dan rank society known as world head of family sokeship hall of fame :rolleyes:

If you consider that a legit enough organization to put it in your profile that pretty much speaks volumes to me.....they are a joke...
 
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kishoto

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sorry i am late replying to statement. so you believe the world head of soke ship council is a joke. this means you believe chuck norris,bill wallace,kathy long,joe lewis,don wilson,and many others that are not movie stars or full contact fighters are jokes. i have worked out with these and many more they are not jokes. open your mind and your true martial spirit will emerge until then you will never experiance your own martial arts just what someone teaches you.
 

Gene Williams

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kishoto said:
sorry i am late replying to statement. so you believe the world head of soke ship council is a joke. this means you believe chuck norris,bill wallace,kathy long,joe lewis,don wilson,and many others that are not movie stars or full contact fighters are jokes. i have worked out with these and many more they are not jokes. open your mind and your true martial spirit will emerge until then you will never experiance your own martial arts just what someone teaches you.
The name itself is a joke, as is the concept. The organization is always graspingly inviting people with Hollywood names to join or making them honorary members. Norris, Kathy Long, Wallace and Wilson were primarily tournament point fighters who got a lot of BB magazine coverage and a few B grade movie contracts. Lewis is indeed one Hell of a fighter and to be respected for that. None of the others were in his class as an actual full contact fighter. Norris is a good man and has done tons of stuff for charitable causes. But, in the eyes of traditional karate ka they are not traditionalists. No serious practitioner of a traditional ryu would set himself up as a "soke." The term is misunderstood and misused by the organization and the people in it. There are many people who have been in the traditional arts longer than you have been in whatever you are in and would never refer to themselves as "soke," grand master," "master," or make claims of 9th dan, blah, blah. Some of their names: Hayashi, Kuniba, Higioshi, Nishiyama, Oyata, Demura, Higaonna, Mabuni, Motobu, and many others. There are practitioners on this and other forums who have forgotten more real martial arts than you know who would never do so, either. Now, what makes you so special, Mr. Soke?
 
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kishoto

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i have not asked for tittle of soke or grandmaster all my rank above fifth dan we recieved under protest. 20 years ago i to believed that there should be a pure style but if this was true then there would be no improvement. there will allways be some that corupt instead of improving. these are the ones that recieve the most attention. think of this if a tree stops growing it decays and dies. so the arts need to grow. as for the dojo name i know shoto was his pen name and kan means hall. if one of my students showed the disrespect for a brother in the arts no matter the rank they would never be allowed in my dojo again. things like this is the tradition i am trying to keep alive mostly respect try it you may like it
 

Gene Williams

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kishoto said:
i have not asked for tittle of soke or grandmaster all my rank above fifth dan we recieved under protest. 20 years ago i to believed that there should be a pure style but if this was true then there would be no improvement. there will allways be some that corupt instead of improving. these are the ones that recieve the most attention. think of this if a tree stops growing it decays and dies. so the arts need to grow. as for the dojo name i know shoto was his pen name and kan means hall. if one of my students showed the disrespect for a brother in the arts no matter the rank they would never be allowed in my dojo again. things like this is the tradition i am trying to keep alive mostly respect try it you may like it
You don't seem too strong on the tradition of English grammar and punctuation, either. You don't get respect just because you come up with some mishmash like the above and call yourself a martial artist. If Shotokan is your primary style, why isn't that good enough? I don't know, but I would bet pretty good money that, if you went and trained in any traditional Shotokan dojo or any other traditional dojo, you'd look about like a green belt. Again, just a bet; however I've had plenty who puke out the same garbage as you come through and it is the same every time.
 
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kishoto

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try me and see. look on my website for diections or email to set a time and place.
 
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