Shotokan As Applied to MMA

[Bill Mattocks]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/27/890327/there-are-no-shortcuts-in-shotokan

So while Shotokan karatekas won't necessarily flock to MMA as amateur wrestlers have, we shouldn't let the admittedly considerable impediments to success dictate that only Lyoto Machida can make this style work. That could be true, but there exists room for hope that other Shotokan karatekas or wing chun practitioners or whoever can also make an impact now that Machida is blazing something of a new path. The next innovation doesn't necessarily have to involve a major paradigm shift. Even atomic adjustments can send big messages.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/27/890327/there-are-no-shortcuts-in-shotokan

You'll have to modify Shotokan to use it in the ring and then train the hell out of it. Certain things about the style just won't work. The positive is that the basic footwork that karateka are using can be trained to a very high level and used successfully.

 

[K831]

You'll have to modify Shotokan to use it in the ring and then train the hell out of it. Certain things about the style just won't work. The positive is that the basic footwork that karateka are using can be trained to a very high level and used successfully.

I agree with your assessment of the footwork. What aspects of the system do you feel will not work in MMA/competition?

I agree with you, just curious if what you think wont work follows the same thought process I had.

As far as others being able to use Karate successfuly as Mahchida has, I read an article on sherdog / Bloody elbow a while back that had some interesting thoughts in it, especially given some of the other threads on the Machida/TMA/Karate in MMA topic.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/3/745497/the-meaning-of-lyoto-machi

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/ufc-94-analysis-on-prominence-and-possibility-16017

"St. Pierre's Kyokushin karate background has been prominent in molding him into the well-rounded modern MMA prototype. Machida's traditional Shotokan karate style, however, has allowed him to devise a fight style that hadn't been dreamt of.

It has been presumed for nearly the last decade that the blueprint for MMA had been designed and that the "proper" way to fight had been discovered. The developmental stages of the sport had seemingly disposed of myriad traditional martial arts, while preaching that muay Thai, wrestling and jiu-jitsu were the "correct" way forward.

Machida's dominance, especially in the light of his brutalization of Silva, instructs us further about possibility in this sport. Are we really evolved as we think? Do we really know all there is to know about the essence of prizefighting?

So long as Machida continues to parry his way to prominence, we may have to concede that we're not all knowing about combat and we may have to table the muay Thai-wrestling-BJJ myth. In this case, ignorance may actually be exciting, as we see more fighters test the efficacy of traditional martial arts in the cage. Can wing chun be next, please?"

I know some will cry heresy at the notion that GSP or Machida's use of more traditional styles (Karate) is nothing new at all in MMA, everyone does it or that those styles unique to them have nothing to do with their success. I don't entirely agree.

Shoot, Machida's father doesn't know of any other Shotokan practitioners in the sport:

 

[dnovice]

I agree with your assessment of the footwork. What aspects of the system do you feel will not work in MMA/competition?

I agree with you, just curious if what you think wont work follows the same thought process I had.

As far as others being able to use Karate successfuly as Mahchida has, I read an article on sherdog / Bloody elbow a while back that had some interesting thoughts in it, especially given some of the other threads on the Machida/TMA/Karate in MMA topic.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/3/745497/the-meaning-of-lyoto-machi

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/ufc-94-analysis-on-prominence-and-possibility-16017

I know some will cry heresy at the notion that GSP or Machida's use of more traditional styles (Karate) is nothing new at all in MMA, everyone does it or that those styles unique to them have nothing to do with their success. I don't entirely agree.

Shoot, Machida's father doesn't know of any other Shotokan practitioners in the sport:

I'm not exactly well versed in karate, but I'm curious as to what exactly people mean by Machida is using a style not seen before... To me, it just looks like he is a cerebral fighter, one that thinks during fights and doesn't just slug it out. Kinda like genki sudo used to, even though genki sudo liked to fool around in the process.

 

[K831]

I'm not exactly well versed in karate, but I'm curious as to what exactly people mean by Machida is using a style not seen before... To me, it just looks like he is a cerebral fighter, one that thinks during fights and doesn't just slug it out. Kinda like genki sudo used to, even though genki sudo liked to fool around in the process.

I think what people typically mean is that he has a unique blend of martial arts that he is competing with. He is a BJJ black belt, which isn’t uncommon, but he mixes that with Judo (less common, although it seems the benefit of cross training Judo has caught on) and his base striking art is Karate.

What people seem to notices as “unseen” before starts here. First, consider his stance. His foot position, posture etc is noticeably different than the boxer/M.T. fighter:

His punching is noticeably different as well. Point of origin, straight line vs. curve line and how a Karate practitioner generates power in their punches and kicks is also different than how a boxer/M.T. fighter does.

The articles I linked point out the current recipe in MMA is generally considered to be Boxing/M.T./Bjj/Wrestling. Machida flys in the face of that notion (as do some others)

Take for instance Machida’s stance. I train often at a local boxing gym once or twice a week. I train at a school that teaches Thai kick boxing, Bjj etc. twice a week. I train at my Kenpo school 3 times a week.

First thing the boxing and MMA school told me was “your stance is too deep and too wide, you posture too erect, your hands and elbows out to far…. You can’t move fast, or hit hard and your gonna get knocked out.”

Yet we have Machida with his deep, wide stance, erect posture etc….

He proves to the masses what I have been able to show my sparring partners about arts outside of boxing and Thai boxing.

Just my thoughts….

 

[Makalakumu]

I agree with your assessment of the footwork. What aspects of the system do you feel will not work in MMA/competition?

A lot of the traditional applications to the forms will not work because they'd be considered fouls in an MMA comp. Some of the training methods would not be useful because they simply aren't going to raise you to a high enough skill level. They are more suited for beginners. You are going to have to alter how you perform basics and how you string them together into drills. Some of these drills can be informed by kata some will have to come from elsewhere.

That said, there really is a lot of great stuff in shotokan. When it is trained realistically and combined with more clinching and grappling skills it certainly will give you what you need for a MMA comp.

Machida controls the distance and timing of the fight to such an extent it is breath taking. When you consider some of the basic drills like Ten No Kata and then wonder what the highest level of those looks like, that's what I now see in my minds eye.

 

[K831]

A lot of the traditional applications to the forms will not work because they'd be considered fouls in an MMA comp.

That's the biggest issue I see. I competed regionally when I was in college. Heck, I wrestled in high school, boxed and had been doing Kenpo for a couple of years and wanted to see how I would fair so I entered some small time MMA competitions. Having been immersed in Kenpo karate for several years, I realized quickly how hard it was to shut off all that Neuro musclular memory I had built in. Oops, can't kick to the groin...ooops no finger whips...oops cant elbow to the back of the head.... ooops no small joint manipulation and so on. I lost my first fight via disqualification. My competetive side had me train for the next couple of MMA competitions, despite my Kenpo instructor telling me it would screw up my SD. He was right, you fight like you train. You can only spread yourself so thin. After satisfying myself that I had competed and done well, I eagerly put my focus back to realistic self defense.

Part of what I like about Machida, he stayed true to his art, but was able to leave out what didn't fit in MMA, and optimize what was left.

Some of the training methods would not be useful because they simply aren't going to raise you to a high enough skill level.

I think that reflects the learning curve/time frame more than the end resulting skill level. Much of the methodology used to teach Karate just takes much much longer, than something like boxing, IMO.

Machida controls the distance and timing of the fight to such an extent it is breath taking. When you consider some of the basic drills like Ten No Kata and then wonder what the highest level of those looks like, that's what I now see in my minds eye.

Completely agree! In fact, I've had the same thought.

 

[Tez3]

Don't tell me this is the first time you've seen karate stances etc in MMA? I have a suspicion many people only watched this fight because of his much vaunted 'karate', guess the publicity worked if everyone is raving about it.'Oo look karate being used in MMA.'
The wide stance is one most MMA fighters use, legs too close together mean shoots and takedowns are easier.
Karate has always been used in MMA, big part of it in fact and if you study a great many fighters you will find karate. You'll find Judo for that matter.
You are all talking about him as if you've never seen karate or judo in an MMA fight before.

 

[Odin]

I have to agree with tez, karate being used in MMA is not a new idea ( to be fair to everyone unless you are a serious MMA fan you would proberly not of seen Pride, shooto k-1 or any of the other Japanese shows )
What is NEW is that no one has been able to use it as effectively as Machida….again though and this is not a dig, I think it has more to do with Machida's distance and timing and less of his actual Karate moves.

From watching machida's fights its clear to see the holes in his striking for instance, his boxing leaves his chin exposed his punchs are all very linear, if you noticed in the Evans fight the only time he was caught was when he came into strike evans and evans managed to catch him in a flurry on his way out because machida's hands were so low and punches so long, this is a weakness and IMHO his boxing/karate hands only work for machida because of his evasive abilty and his in and out style, I do not feel it can be used as a template to train other mixed martial artists stand up the way boxing and muay thai is used. one of the best examples what I was speaking to a mate about lastnight in the gym…..take Floyd mayweather….pound for pound the best boxer on the planet possiably of the decade…so surely if you want to be the next greatest boxing surely we should all start boxing like flyod?, all defence should be philly shell, all blocks and parries should be with the sholder?all turns off the fore arm?.......the likely hood would be that even if you followed floyds training ragime down to the T for the next four years you would still not be as good as him nor be able to use his stlye of boxing as effective as he does ( Take ricky hatton for instance ) it is after all down to the fighter to make the style work for him.

What it does do is create a new style of MMA striking to think about about and to address in training, I can see machida's ''hit and run'' style of fighting join the ranks of gound and pound, lay and pray, sprawl and brawl etc as another stratdgy to think about………………

 

[K831]

Don't tell me this is the first time you've seen karate stances etc in MMA?

I don't think anyone is saying that. Read the article I posted. The point is Machida is the LHW champ. He is making it work extremely well and it's impressive.

I have to agree with tez, karate being used in MMA is not a new idea ( to be fair to everyone unless you are a serious MMA fan you would proberly not of seen Pride, shooto k-1 or any of the other Japanese shows )

While I may not be an all-knowing MMA guru of the caliber found in this forum, I have actually watched Pride. In fact, I only started watching UFC when my favorite pride fighters found themselves a new home there.

What is NEW is that no one has been able to use it as effectively as Machida….

So you agree with Tez, then reiterate the point the rest of us have already made? That it’s exciting to see a guy use Karate effectively and become the champ? I'm confused, I guess I could go back to posting only in the Kenpo and FMA forums. I could come back here when I have watched the minimum quota of MMA competitions so that you guys will actually "read" my posts for content and drop the ad hominen attemps. Eh.... probably not.

... his boxing leaves his chin exposed his punchs are all very linear,

Which I already stated in my last post:

His punching is noticeably different as well. Point of origin, straight line vs. curve line and how a Karate practitioner generates power in their punches and kicks is also different than how a boxer/M.T. fighter does.

this is a weakness and IMHO his boxing/karate hands only work for machida because of his evasive abilty and his in and out style,

Which as I have explained, I have been told before:

First thing the boxing and MMA school told me was “your stance is too deep and too wide, your posture too erect, your hands and elbows out to far…. You can’t move fast, or hit hard and your gonna get knocked out.”

I do not feel it can be used as a template to train other mixed martial artists stand up the way boxing and muay thai is used.

Here we go circular again.... I get told here by Tez and others that no one actually thinks the template for success in MMA is Boxing/Muay Thai/grappling yet here you assert it is. I get told by both of you Karate in MMA is not knew, happens all the time, why is anyone noticing Machida is a Karate guy etc... then I get told he is unique and that what he has done can't be replicated? So which is it??

What it does do is create a new style of MMA striking to think about about and to address in training,

It is new...everyone in the Japanese orgs have done it....it is new.....every champ uses karate stances, leaves their chin exposed and uses linear punches...it's only Machida who.... Seriously which one is it?

I think your last comment is correct; Which is all we're excited about. Machida has perhaps created a "new" or "unique" style as you say... and his "Karate" influence has helped him do that.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Read the article I posted. The point is Machida is the LHW champ. He is making it work extremely well and it's impressive.



While I may not be an all-knowing MMA guru of the caliber found in this forum, I have actually watched Pride. In fact, I only started watching UFC when my favorite pride fighters found themselves a new home there.

So you agree with Tez, then reiterate the point the rest of us have already made? That it’s exciting to see a guy use Karate effectively and become the champ? I'm confused, I guess I could go back to posting only in the Kenpo and FMA forums. I could come back here when I have watched the minimum quota of MMA competitions so that you guys will actually "read" my posts for content and drop the ad hominen attemps. Eh.... probably not.




Which I already stated in my last post:





Which as I have explained, I have been told before:



Here we go circular again.... I get told here by Tez and others that no one actually thinks the template for success in MMA is Boxing/Muay Thai/grappling yet here you assert it is. I get told by both of you Karate in MMA is not knew, happens all the time, why is anyone noticing Machida is a Karate guy etc... then I get told he is unique and that what he has done can't be replicated? So which is it??




It is new...everyone in the Japanese orgs have done it....it is new.....every champ uses karate stances, leaves their chin exposed and uses linear punches...it's only Machida who.... Seriously which one is it?

I think your last comment is correct; Which is all we're excited about. Machida has perhaps created a "new" or "unique" style as you say... and his "Karate" influence has helped him do that.

perhaps you should read my posts, I have never said that the template for MMA is MT/BJJ etc, what I've been trying to get people to see is that MMA is a mixture of more that that. You are limiting it to just a couple of styles while most MMA fighters are open to and will train with as many as can offer them techniques. This is what makes MMA so exciting and also makes tactics such a big part of MMA, you have to train to fight your named a opponent. Yes Machida's style is unque but then so are all the others.
People are making a fuss about Machida because they have been told he's a Shotokan guy, it ramps up the excitement, gets more fans on board. The publicity machine at work and it's been successful, look how many threads and posts about him are on here.

MMA is like baking a cake, we all have our favourite recipes that work for us, the main ingredients are the same but we all add the bits we like. When the cakes baked and turned out it looks like all other cakes so we know what it is but bite into it and each one will be different, unique in fact. The thing with the cake too is that the ingredients all go in to make up a whole, the end result tastes like a cake not a succession of individual ingredients. Machidas 'cake' has a different topping on but is still a 'cake'!

 

[K831]

MMA is like baking a cake, we all have our favourite recipes that work for us, the main ingredients are the same but we all add the bits we like. When the cakes baked and turned out it looks like all other cakes so we know what it is but bite into it and each one will be different, unique in fact. The thing with the cake too is that the ingredients all go in to make up a whole, the end result tastes like a cake not a succession of individual ingredients. Machidas 'cake' has a different topping on but is still a 'cake'!

One things for sure.... now I'm off to the bakery.

perhaps you should read my posts, I have never said that the template for MMA is MT/BJJ etc,

Um… the part in my post you bolded says exactly that… that YOU said MT/Boxing/BJJ isn’t the only template for MMA… your not reading my posts!!


Seriously... is it so hard to admit that Machida's "topping" is pretty exciting? He is doing a pretty good job of using some very traditional aspects of Karate successfully.

 

[Tez3]

One things for sure.... now I'm off to the bakery.

Seriously... is it so hard to admit that Machida's "topping" is pretty exciting? He is doing a pretty good job of using some very traditional aspects of Karate successfully.

No ones saying it's not but you also have to hand it to the UFC publicity department who's got you all talking!
Mine is double choc fudge cake served warm with Cornish ice cream please!

 

[K831]

No ones saying it's not but you also have to hand it to the UFC publicity department who's got you all talking!
Mine is double choc fudge cake served warm with Cornish ice cream please!

Naturally they will jump on it like white on rice... can't blame them. But where there is smoke, there's fire. While they may ignore that others have worked in styles like Karate with some success in the past, Machida's successful usage is a blast to watch. I've been watching him for a long time, and felt he really deserved his shot. Maybe I'm just to big a Machida fan.

I love chocolate, and you lot get to have much better chocolate than we typically get here in the states.

 

[dnovice]

Naturally they will jump on it like white on rice... can't blame them. But where there is smoke, there's fire. While they may ignore that others have worked in styles like Karate with some success in the past, Machida's successful usage is a blast to watch. I've been watching him for a long time, and felt he really deserved his shot. Maybe I'm just to big a Machida fan.

I love chocolate, and you lot get to have much better chocolate than we typically get here in the states.

Machida is an MMA fighter. He is a black belt in grappling; has a background in mui Thai, is even though his main art is karate. The only difference I see is that he added karate. Technically he did follow the mold, just from a different path. I might have my facts wrong. If so correct me.

 

[Tez3]

Machida is an MMA fighter. He is a black belt in grappling; has a background in mui Thai, is even though his main art is karate. The only difference I see is that he added karate. Technically he did follow the mold, just from a different path. I might have my facts wrong. If so correct me.

I think you have it spot on!

 

[Odin]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Read the article I posted. The point is Machida is the LHW champ. He is making it work extremely well and it's impressive.



While I may not be an all-knowing MMA guru of the caliber found in this forum, I have actually watched Pride. In fact, I only started watching UFC when my favorite pride fighters found themselves a new home there.

So you agree with Tez, then reiterate the point the rest of us have already made? That it’s exciting to see a guy use Karate effectively and become the champ? I'm confused, I guess I could go back to posting only in the Kenpo and FMA forums. I could come back here when I have watched the minimum quota of MMA competitions so that you guys will actually "read" my posts for content and drop the ad hominen attemps. Eh.... probably not.




Which I already stated in my last post:





Which as I have explained, I have been told before:



Here we go circular again.... I get told here by Tez and others that no one actually thinks the template for success in MMA is Boxing/Muay Thai/grappling yet here you assert it is. I get told by both of you Karate in MMA is not knew, happens all the time, why is anyone noticing Machida is a Karate guy etc... then I get told he is unique and that what he has done can't be replicated? So which is it??




It is new...everyone in the Japanese orgs have done it....it is new.....every champ uses karate stances, leaves their chin exposed and uses linear punches...it's only Machida who.... Seriously which one is it?

I think your last comment is correct; Which is all we're excited about. Machida has perhaps created a "new" or "unique" style as you say... and his "Karate" influence has helped him do that.

You may have missed my point, I agree with Tez that Karate IS NOT NEW MMA, yet NO ONE ( even in pride or shooto ) has been able to use it as effectively as Machida has….he is Currently 15-0, with wins over stephan bonner,Tito Ortiz, Rich Franklin and BJ Penn ( although a contraversal one at that ) THAT is what is exciting to see…..after all you have watched pride,surely you can see the difference in the way Machida uses his karate compared to other Japense fighters?? Machida and his Karate are now common knowledge because of how much it stands out in the way he fights.
THAT IS THE POINT!

Karate is not unique in MMA but the way in which Machida uses Karate is…….Similar to BJ Penn and jujitsu, have you ever seen anyone use Jujitsu the way Penn does?and how many UFC fighters are Jujitsu black belts??hell how many UFC fighters are high ranking Jujitsu players, yet have you ever seen anyone use jujitsu like Penn?NO.

I think maybe YOU need to read posts……not to mention I wasn’t replying direct to you in the slightest, merely I was giving my opinion ( it’s a forum after all is it not?...maybe the kenpo forum would be better suited to you)

 

[Makalakumu]

Um, yeah, guys and gals lets return to the topic at hand. Shotokan in MMA. Odin made a good point about a new style being invented and I think it bears revisiting. The "hit and run" style is what karate is all about. When Itosu formulated many of our kata, he stated that the key to application was to enter, counter, and withdraw. When it comes to grappling and striking, this was the template...and that is the template that Machida is using.

I also think that this way of fighting gives us an idea of what traditional blocking looks like with the proper footwork. Notice that the blocks are almost an afterthought and that they are used to open an opponent up to be countered. This will give you a new perspective on the opening move in many kata, a block followed by a long rushing in attack. What Machida is doing is raising that principle to the nth degree.

 

[dancingalone]

Surely everyone would concede that Machida's karate roots are evident in the ring, much more so than other top fighters like Bisping or St. Pierre who also have TMA backgrounds? Hype or not, there's substance behind why karate fans are rallying behind Machida.

 

[Andrew Green]

there's substance behind why karate fans are rallying behind Machida.

The real question is how many of them will learn from the training methods he used to take his karate to that level and the cross training he did to support it.