Short Form 2

[WilliamTLear]

Warriorsage,

I used to study under Frank Trejo until a few months ago, and his explanation of the middle knuckle strike (which you are referencing) completely coincides with what you wrote. Although I train under Bryan Hawkins now, I haven't really asked him but I think I will pose the question to him when I get the chance tomorrow.

Hope this helps,
Billy Lear

P.S. I'll write Mr. Hawkins' reply to you as soon as I get the chance. (He was one of Mr. Parker's more prominent students in the later years and might have some interesting insight.)

 

[GouRonin]

I have to say that I am doing Obscure Wing wrong then. I like to step into my opponent. If I step to 3:00 then my back up mass is going that way into my stance. Why would I send my weapon to 6:00 in a direction that isn't in harmony with my weight?

You're a big guy so maybe you can get away with that because of those huge pythons but me, I need all the force I can get. I want to use what little weight I have to fold that guy in half with my first strike. So I go into him. (We'll say he's standing at my 4:30)

Huk was pointing out that Shotokan guys tend to punch in one direction while sending their body weight in another direction. Or like in tournament punches, you can score while backing up but on the street if you punch while backing up you won't get much so I adapted this concept for this technique.

As usual, I'm doing it wrong. But I don't care! Ah ha ha ha!

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Gou, Gou, Gou.... Always the one making light of things

I always say if it's to serious to laugh at then it's not serious at all.

But in all reality I see what you are saying. There is a purpose for it. A guy like you needs to know that purpose because you need to be able to pass the system/art on.

Huk once told me that I will 2 styles of Kenpo. 1) The way the Old Man wanted it done so that it can be passed on. 2) My way that is tailored to me so I can use it.

Originally posted by kenpo3631
It IS cursed....

Eeep! Can't fight the curse!

 

[WilliamTLear]

Stepping to three o'clock is NOT the way that I was taught this technique, and I have to say that the way that I do it has been reinforced by several senior black belts under Mr. Parker... Here... let me name a few...

Bryan Hawkins
Frank Trejo
Dennis Conatser
Diane Tanaka
Larry Tatum
Gilbert Velez
Paul Mills
and Rainer Schulte

The step is to 4:30, and that is not just for power, but for stability in your stance. If you step to 3:00 with your left then you momentarily sacrifice a strong stance and end up leaving your self vulnerable to being pulled/pushed off balance.

REMEMBER: The guy is choking you from behind... If he has an applied grab don't you think he might decide to push and pull to destabalize you?

The understanding of this technique (among "ALL" of the others) is not totally gauged by the power in which you can strike your opponent, but also protecting your self from further impending danger (intentional or not).

4:30 is the way it is written, it is the way I have seen Mr. Parker teach it on video (I used to archive videos of Mr. Parker for his son). The video in question was one in which Mr. Parker was demonstrating on Bryan Hawkins, and it was spectacular to watch!!! (Unfortunately nobody but Edmund has a copy, and he wont let them out of his sight! Although, he might use the footage in an up comming video series he is in the middle of producing.)

MY SUGGESTION IS THAT IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT ABOUT WHAT I AM SAYING HAVE SOMEONE GIVE YOU THE MOST REALISTIC ATTACK POSSIBLE AND EXPERIMENT WITH IT BOTH YOUR WAY AND TOWARD 4:30...

IF YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK 100% OF THE TIME BY STEPPING TO 3:00 THEN YOU ARE A BETTER MAN THAN ME.

Respectfully,
Billy Lear

P.S. this technique also has some environmental considerations that it accounts for. Just something for you to chew on. Take Care. :asian:

 

[warriorsage]

I've read on a few websites and forums that the downward raking middle knuckle (with the wide kneel) in short two is incorrect AND that is was designed purposely that way by Mr. Parker to see if his students were actively investigating the forms. I don't personally like the strike, or atleast haven't been taught to use it properly, but I thought that was my shortcoming. I would find it odd if Mr. Parker actually designed things incorrectly on purpose, despite the logic behind it.

I was wondering if anyone else had heard this, or if some of the seniors would care to throw their $.02 in (HINT: that means you Mr. C).

 

[warriorsage]

Thanks for the info guys. Mr. C, I think I undestand what you were saying, but the part that was specifically pointed out as being flawed was the raking downward middle knuckle. It ws pointed out (by someone on KenpoNet) that the middle knuckle is not structurally sound when used in this fashion. Any thoughts?

Also, in regard to Dan Farmers post: I've read MANY times that SGM Parker taught several things that weren't correct, or better stated, weren't optimally functional, to check if his students were doing any personal exploration of the material. I heard it was also done to see who the students were training under. Now, these are just things I've heard and read, but they have come from some people close to the source. I think Ed Jr even mentioned something about this either in The Journey or in the BlackBelt magazine ad from a year or so back.

Any thoughts?

 

[Rainman]

There is some very cool stuff in short form 2. One principle it highlights is centrifugal force. From the outward block punch combo facing 3 o'clock rear cross to 4:30 and use your feet to unwind into your wide kneel. Your hands/arms are in the shape of a 90 degree angle in front of your chest with the corner formed in front of your rt pectoral muscle. At the point were max torque is achieved your hands should be striking in the form of a rt. middle knuckle and lt. upward "block". That is just one of the things that can make that movement more fun. Also realize that each movement has more than one application.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

I was taught that it shows the principle of torque. The first three sets of movement in the form show, (amongst other things), how to use the three power priciples.

1. Five Swords = Back Up Mass, 2. Block and punch to 3 & 9 = Torque, and 3. Wide kneel, upward block, middle knuckle = Marriage with Gravity.

That's great if you are an orange belt because it is very basic and easy to understand. There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon. Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed. Upon impact is where they are felt along with breath and projection the culmination of which is deemed focus.

Centrifugal force is good to look at from the ram (second tek) on because it aids in keeping the arms relaxed and aids in the whip that can be included if one decides to keep the movements in the form continueus.


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

3631,

Obscure Wing. Are you making contact with your elbow or your whole body? Think about adding directional harmony body momentum, and gravitational marriage on the first strike. Additionally look at book V page 105 under the power section. As Obcure Wing is a combination of basic moves Power works the same way... by combination.



:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Even if you step to 3 your forearm and hand are behind the elbow strike and that is still considered back up mass. Your understanding is not wrong but, expand your usage so you are doing many things at once. Empty your cup it is difficult to fill something that is full.

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Back Up Mass

The use of body weight that is directly behind of the action that is taking place. For example (1) a punch that is delivered when the elbow is directly behind the fist, or (2) the bracing of one finger behind the other when delivering a 2 finger chop to the throat etc.
Back up mass is greatly enhanced when body alignment is achieved. Body alignment gets mass into proper perspective and allows the body to take full advantage of channeling wieght and energy while traveling in the same direction.

Infinite Insights V

Just a basic definition but like all things in this art it goes deeper.

Misalign the forearm and elbow and see how much power you lose. Step to 4:30 and see how much power is gained. It is your choice do what works best.



:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

No, I don't believe it was taught as incorrect. It accomplishes its purpose. While the wide kneel teaches how to drop quickly (vertically) we also learn a new hand combination definition - of front hand Upward action "with" a downward vertical "raking" strike. Upon expansion, there could be many other uses as well.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
"What about Obscure Wing? That is strictly a "Torque" technique. Can you show me where Marriage with Gravity is used in the base of that technique."
[/B]

Lance, are you saying there is NO Marriage of Gravity in Obscure Wing?

I agree that there is rotational torque with the swordhand but when you "settle" into your stance you utilize marriage of gravity at that time.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I wouldn't put it past him to do such a thing....... I never personally observed it. However, I have watched him see something that was not correct and not correct it at that time.

As to actually teach it wrong..... I believe that he might have done that early on in his career but as for the last 10 years of his life, no. Too much to teach correct to mess with off track stuff.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

NO. What I am saying is the "MAIN" power principle...the "power principle" that get's the job done primarily is TORQUE.:asian:

So in this technique, to accomplish "Torque" you don't have marriage of gravity play a role in this other than a "minor" roll. Is that right?

 

[kenpo3631]

I was taught the same thing by my instructor, Lee Wedlake Jr., that the middle knuckle was taught incorrect for the same reasons you stated. However RainMan's statement or for a better use of phraseology the "term" centrifugal force, I don't necessarily agree with.

"One principle it highlights is centrifugal force. From the outward block punch combo facing 3 o'clock rear cross to 4:30 and use your feet to unwind into your wide kneel"

I was taught that it shows the principle of torque. The first three sets of movement in the form show, (amongst other things), how to use the three power priciples.

1. Five Swords = Back Up Mass, 2. Block and punch to 3 & 9 = Torque, and 3. Wide kneel, upward block, middle knuckle = Marriage with Gravity.

Dennis come on I know you have more to add for us

:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rainman


That's great if you are an orange belt because it is very basic and easy to understand. There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon. Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed. Upon impact is where they are felt along with breath and projection the culmination of which is deemed focus.

Centrifugal force is good to look at from the ram (second tek) on because it aids in keeping the arms relaxed and aids in the whip that can be included if one decides to keep the movements in the form continueus.

Very basic and easy to understand.....hmmmm. You state that "There are no primary power generators unless you are using that as a teaching tool to be later expanded upon."

So basically what you are saying is that all three power principles must work together all the time? What about Obscure Wing? That is strictly a "Torque" technique. Can you show me where Marriage with Gravity is used in the base of that technique? Hmmmmm.:shrug:

Secondly, "Back up mass, torque, and gravitational marriage work simultaneously in all three of the combinations you listed." I really think you need to look over that sentence. Where is the Marriage with Gravity and the Back Up Mass in the "Block and Punch" set following Five Swords? You are not using your weight in line vertically (Marriage with Gravity) at any time during that set of moves nor are you rotating to the standard Forward Bow to genrate force horizontally in line with your strike (Back Up Mass), so how can you honestly say all three power principles are used simultaneously! Also what is the "primary power principle" in the wide kneel/ middle knuckle strike? Marriage with Gravity! Where do you use you body weight in line horizontally (back up mass ) anywhere in that set of movements?

Just my observations, but hey! I wasn't there so I must be wrong...LOL




:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Lance, are you saying there is NO Marriage of Gravity in Obscure Wing?

I agree that there is rotational torque with the swordhand but when you "settle" into your stance you utilize marriage of gravity at that time.

:asian:

NO. What I am saying is the "MAIN" power principle...the "power principle" that get's the job done primarily is TORQUE.:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Rainman

3631,

Obscure Wing. Are you making contact with your elbow or your whole body? Think about adding directional harmony body momentum, and gravitational marriage on the first strike. Additionally look at book V page 105 under the power section. As Obcure Wing is a combination of basic moves Power works the same way... by combination.



:asian:

If you are hitting with you whole body you must be OUT of alignment.

Think about it for a minute. Where do you step first? 3 o'clock correct? In which direction does your elbow strike? 6 o'clock, correct? That is the way I was taught it, my original instructor was taught it, Lee Wedlake was taught, Huk Planas was taught, Frank Trejo was taught...etc, etc, etc.

So how can you honestly say that there is Back Up Mass being used as the underlying power principle of the technique? Wait! Maybe my definition of Back Up Mass is incorrect. Isn't Back Up Mass using your body weight IN-LINE with your strike? Where do you see that in Obscure Wing?

Does anyone else have a different definition of Back Up Mass? I must have heard incorrectly in that class:shrug:

:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I have to say that I am doing Obscure Wing wrong then. I like to step into my opponent. If I step to 3:00 then my back up mass is going that way into my stance. Why would I send my weapon to 6:00 in a direction that isn't in harmony with my weight?

You're a big guy so maybe you can get away with that because of those huge pythons but me, I need all the force I can get. I want to use what little weight I have to fold that guy in half with my first strike. So I go into him. (We'll say he's standing at my 4:30)

Huk was pointing out that Shotokan guys tend to punch in one direction while sending their body weight in another direction. Or like in tournament punches, you can score while backing up but on the street if you punch while backing up you won't get much so I adapted this concept for this technique.

As usual, I'm doing it wrong. But I don't care! Ah ha ha ha!

It's not wrong...per se. However if we are talking about the way it is written and the way it is taught to the beginner then , yes, it is wrong. I am just pointing out that as written, stepping back is wrong. Practically...there is nothing that says you can't step back, however I feel you lose the underlying power principle by doing so.
My question know is, why are you stepping back? You say to gain directional harmony, which is not wrong, but you know as well as I do that we do certain things in the system to show different things, (like the middleknuckle strike in Short 2 :rofl: ).
Also...I think you've been hit in the solar plexus, right Gou? Did it take allot of force to bend you over and knock the wind out of you? My point is you're delivering a hard weapon to a soft target, why do you need to generate all this force when all you need is just enough.
Another thing is that the "extension" to that technique has you shoot the right leg back to 7:30 to buckle your opponent after the hammerfist to the groin, so why would you want to shorten your travel on the leg? also what if you can't step back? What then eh?
Besides Bonehead said that the beginning techniques are just half techniques (meaning they have not been completed at that belt level, there is more to them). but then again I was not there...:asian: