Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[futsaowingchun]

A short descriptive video on the MCM Wing Chun perspective on the differences between Jun Ma or turning stance, commonly used in the Ip Man lineage -vs- using turning waist which is a alternative method found in the MCM Wing Chun system as well as in the Fut Sao Wing Chun lineages. This shows how both methods are valid and how I apply them applied at certain situations.. This time the framing is okay.

 

[wckf92]

Well, I don't know anything about the Fut Sao stuff...but both of these methods are contained within the YM forms.

Much better video quality than the last one though...

 

[Danny T]

Situational. As in all things it will be what is the situation.
What, When, Where, Who, Why, will determine the How.
We pivot based upon these and there may be a step, a pivot on the ball of the foot or on the heel depending upon the situation. Range, timing, pressure, all are determining factors. One may want to create distance and not be jammed up or the pressure is such turning on the ball of the feet is better. One may want to maintain the distance and only change the angle of attack, or one may be able to simple turn the waist because the opponent is giving any real pressure. Sometimes I will shift the body attempting to draw an attack to a specific direction stepping and shifting upon that attack.
It is always situational.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Well, I don't know anything about the Fut Sao stuff...but both of these methods are contained within the YM forms.

Much better video quality than the last one though...

I have learnt the Ip Man forms where it is?

 

[geezer]

All in all I'd agree with your presentation. One point of clarification. Not all Yip Man WC advocates pivoting both feet as this can cause loss of root. In my core lineage, WT, only one foot is turned at a time which helps with the rooting problem you described. Then there is also the speed problem ...and the efficiency issue. IMO there is definitely a time and place for the waist flexion you advocate. As Danny said it's situational. And I learned this within a Yip Man lineage. So it is there.

 

[Danny T]

I've heard some Ip Man instructors state the turning is on the heels only, some on the balls of the feet. When watching his pivoting in the limited films of him there are times he does both. In his chum kiu he does both in his wooden dummy he does both. He even turns only a the waist a few times as well.

 

[Danny T]

I've heard some Ip Man instructors state the turning is on the heels only, some on the balls of the feet. When watching his pivoting in the limited films of him there are times he does both. In his chum kiu he does both in his wooden dummy he does both. He even turns only a the waist a few times as well.

And we turn one foot at a time not both at the same time.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Situational. As in all things it will be what is the situation.
What, When, Where, Who, Why, will determine the How.
We pivot based upon these and there may be a step, a pivot on the ball of the foot or on the heel depending upon the situation. Range, timing, pressure, all are determining factors. One may want to create distance and not be jammed up or the pressure is such turning on the ball of the feet is better. One may want to maintain the distance and only change the angle of attack, or one may be able to simple turn the waist because the opponent is giving any real pressure. Sometimes I will shift the body attempting to draw an attack to a specific direction stepping and shifting upon that attack.
It is always situational.

I agree it depends on the situation which is what I was trying to convey in the video.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I've heard some Ip Man instructors state the turning is on the heels only, some on the balls of the feet. When watching his pivoting in the limited films of him there are times he does both. In his chum kiu he does both in his wooden dummy he does both. He even turns only a the waist a few times as well.

That is a clue that there is not just one way of doing it. In my Bil Gee form there is a section where I move only one foot while the other remains rooted. I call this the half root.

 

[wckf92]

I have learnt the Ip Man forms where it is?

2nd form

 

[geezer]

And we turn one foot at a time not both at the same time.

Danny, does your WC have any connection to WT? I ask because the WT people are the only ones I've run into who strongly preach the one foot at a time approach to turning, as Leung Ting demonstrates in this old video from the early 80s at about 7:00 to 8:30. Done faster, it looks more fluid, almost wave-like as the second foot already begins to turn as the first nears it's completed position.

@Futsao: Notice when you do this method just turning to one side, the rear foot remains rooted exactly like what you described as "the half root". Also you asked where you might find the waist-turning in the forms. I would suggest that this quality is evident in both Chum Kiu and Biu Tze. In the several parts of Chum Kiu (such as the "Lan-sau/Hacking Elbow" sequence with it's series of three 180 degree pivots) we turn our feet and knees to 45% but continue rotating at the waist and hips to achieve the full 90 degree turn to each side.

The waist flexion is more evident in Biu Tze in such movements as the return from side to center with the so-called "hook punch". Waist flexion really adds speed and power to this movement. Finally, there are plenty of our training sequences such as the "chi-sau sections" that also involve this waist flexion. The following clip is not from my organization, but is made by some guys who were also originally were linked to WT and still use much of it's curriculum. Check out the lengthy discussion of waist flexion and He-man action figures from about 12:15 to 15:00. They sound kinda goofy, but it's almost exactly what I learned from Leung Ting:

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't study Wing Chun, but in the kung fu style that I train, our waist generates the power. It's less about the root of the stance and more about the amount of power that can be quickly generated by using the waist. It's amazing how much power you can easily generate with the waist alone. The concept is easy but it takes a bit of practice to learn how to connect the power from the waist into the punch. This video definitely makes since to me. This technique should allow Wing Chun students to really generate some serious power to their punches without actually trying to punch hard.

 

[futsaowingchun]

All in all I'd agree with your presentation. One point of clarification. Not all Yip Man WC advocates pivoting both feet as this can cause loss of root. In my core lineage, WT, only one foot is turned at a time which helps with the rooting problem you described. Then there is also the speed problem ...and the efficiency issue. IMO there is definitely a time and place for the waist flexion you advocate. As Danny said it's situational. And I learned this within a Yip Man lineage. So it is there.

Yes I agree not everyone does pivot both feet at the same time,but its safe to say the majority does. Myself, back in the day was taught this way also.

 

[futsaowingchun]

2nd form

the first section? all Ip Man CK forms I have seen move the stance 90 degrees to the left and right. Can you post a video of it?

 

[futsaowingchun]

the first section? all Ip Man CK forms I have seen move the stance 90 degrees to the left and right. Can you post a video of it?

this is my CK form watch from .23 to .55 seconds you will notice the root does not move. I use only my waist. In th eIp Man 1st section they move their root and use shifting or rotation to generate power whereas I use hip and core to generate power..very different..I dont see any wing chun lineages doing this.

 

[futsaowingchun]

this is my CK form watch from .23 to .55 seconds you will notice the root does not move. I use only my waist. In th eIp Man 1st section they move their root and use shifting or rotation to generate power whereas I use hip and core to generate power..very different..I dont see any wing chun lineages doing this.

then link

 

[geezer]

this is my CK form watch from .23 to .55 seconds you will notice the root does not move. I use only my waist. In th eIp Man 1st section they move their root and use shifting or rotation to generate power whereas I use hip and core to generate power..very different..I dont see any wing chun lineages doing this.

Here's another old video of Leung Ting doing an earlier version of his "WT" Biu Tze form. In all the 180 degree turning movements, of course he shifts his stance (one foot at a time) which is one of his trademarks. But the feet only turn 45 degrees off center. In order to complete the 90 degree turn to each side, the hips complete the rotation. The waist is slightly flexible like a very strong spring. As he turns, there is torsion and release, adding energy to to the movement. It is a subtle movement, but can clearly be seen, for example, when he rapidly pivots to deliver the series of kup jarn (elbow strikes) around 0:18-22, or equally turning back from side-facing to center with the hooking punch after the double lap-sau movements (1:38-1:48). If you watch the very slight lag between the movement of the hip, the shoulder and the fist, you can see how the stance combines with the hips and waist to add tremendous torsional power to this very relaxed hook-like lateral strike.

Finally, a few thoughts on Futsao's Chum Kiu video showing 180 degree pivots with no foot movement at all. It may be fast, but it could be hard on the knees and ankles. I say that because sometimes our group works out in a studio with this weird, thin carpet that grabs your feet like nothing I've ever seen. My feet act like they are glued to the floor and consequently my Chum Kiu turning ends up looking a lot like his. Sure, it works, but ...at least for me... it's a pain in the ...er ...joints! I much prefer the 45 degree foot rotation.

Then again I have bone fusions in my ankles, and damaged knees. It might not be a problem for healthy joints.

 

[Danny T]

Danny, does your WC have any connection to WT? I ask because the WT people are the only ones I've run into who strongly preach the one foot at a time approach to turning, as Leung Ting demonstrates in this old video from the early 80s at about 7:00 to 8:30. Done faster, it looks more fluid, almost wave-like as the second foot already begins to turn as the first nears it's completed position.

Geezer; not connected to WT. Our linage is Jiu Wan from Foshan. According to my Sifu (Francis Fong) Jiu Wan beginning at the age of 8 first learned from his uncle Jiu Jow who learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Jiu Wan trained directly under Chan Wah Shun and is where he met Ip Man. Both were in the Police Association in Foshan and became friends. They became associates again when Jiu Wan move to Hong Kong. He trained and taught in Ip's school for a while and then opened his own school about a year afterwards. He and Ip remained friends until Ip's death.

 

[Jake104]

Here's another old video of Leung Ting doing an earlier version of his "WT" Biu Tze form. In all the 180 degree turning movements, of course he shifts his stance (one foot at a time) which is one of his trademarks. But the feet only turn 45 degrees off center. In order to complete the 90 degree turn to each side, the hips complete the rotation. The waist is slightly flexible like a very strong spring. As he turns, there is torsion and release, adding energy to to the movement. It is a subtle movement, but can clearly be seen, for example, when he rapidly pivots to deliver the series of kup jarn (elbow strikes) around 0:18-22, or equally turning back from side-facing to center with the hooking punch after the double lap-sau movements (1:38-1:48). If you watch the very slight lag between the movement of the hip, the shoulder and the fist, you can see how the stance combines with the hips and waist to add tremendous torsional power to this very relaxed hook-like lateral strike.

Finally, a few thoughts on Futsao's Chum Kiu video showing 180 degree pivots with no foot movement at all. It may be fast, but it could be hard on the knees and ankles. I say that because sometimes our group works out in a studio with this weird, thin carpet that grabs your feet like nothing I've ever seen. My feet act like they are glued to the floor and consequently my Chum Kiu turning ends up looking a lot like his. Sure, it works, but ...at least for me... it's a pain in the ...er ...joints! I much prefer the 45 degree foot rotation.

Then again I have bone fusions in my ankles, and damaged knees. It might not be a problem for healthy joints.

I was originally taught the one foot at a time pivot too. Maybe LT learned this from Leung Sheung? I feel both can be beneficial. IMO weight distribution is more important in keeping good root.

 

[LFJ]

You're all talking about applying this and it being situational how you pivot, but do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still? That is how this is presented and how you're discussing it, like chi-sau in a fight.

For me, that's not at all what CK shifting is for. We don't take movements from the forms and try to apply them as-is in fighting. The forms are entirely abstract. Shifting in CK is done vigorously with sudden stops to purposely test our rotation and balance, even to the point of almost over rotating or losing balance, which are common mistakes beginners make and what we want to cause our opponents to do. And this is testing ourselves in solo training, not even dealing with a partner or opponent yet. Keeping the feet planted or shifting one foot at a time to maintain stability takes the testing out of it and is just considering applications.

CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power. But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.