Sharing part of my training - Speed bag

Alan0354

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You'll won't like my answer for this but I use a different exercise for faster liner punches. I place pennies on a wash cloth then place that on a stool or a table that is waist high. I then get into a horse stance and I try to quickly pick up the pennies one by one. It's chin na conditioning exercise that helps build speed and accuracy. This is the only exercise that I've done that ever increased my speed. It sounds stupid but it works. I haven't done it in a long time, so I can probably do a before and after video on how it works for me.

I think it works because it forces the arm and hand to be relaxed and then quickly tighten when trying to pick up the penny. Because it's a speed and accuracy drill, the mind doesn't focus on trying to add power. The more tense the arm is the slower the speed. I think sometimes adding power causes more bad habits when learning. First learn speed and then learn power. I think this is the better path.
Why won't I like your answer, you gave me something to think about. I was referring to speed bag, you are practicing it, I want to see what you get out of the speed bag after you train for a while that I did not get after a few months.

I listen to all the advice given, I don't necessary follow them, BUT I always listen, then think and at least try. BUT I approach things in a scientific way, not just follow because that supposed to " that's how it is done". A lot of the moves are mechanical, it's physics. I don't follow the advice because I don't agree AFTER I think and try it out. I just came off from a thread that I was accused not listening, but at the same time I put a video I did the similar move 9 months ago. Why do I want to learn something that I tried and not working just because that's in a certain style? Here is the tread I am talking
My TSA approved improvised weapon choice.......

In fact I will try what you said about the pennies. I practice speed by punching air, look in the mirror, relax, punch out as fast as I can and pull back. Watch my shoulder and body to try not to broadcast my intention out.

One thing what you do might help me. You know when you see a fly, spider and stuff, you want to hit it and catch it. I found myself very tense and missed it a lot of times. The way you practice might help...............If not for punching, might help me catching some flies!!!
 
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Alan0354

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Maybe you were looking at the wrong punch. For example, I don't use the speed bad to increase my jabbing speed. I use it to condition my hammer fist and to increase the speed of my hammer fist and the turn over speed for my back fist. I've noticed speed in those areas. For example, if I want to hammer fist someone on the nose, forehead, cheek then that's where my speed has increase.

The speed bag doesn't speed up my jabs because I'm always hitting it with a hammer fist. If I want to send a snapping backfist, then the speed helps with that as well. I have a noticeable speed in those areas and I no longer feel like I'm trying to muscle the those types of strikes. But if won't make the jab faster because it's not using the jab motion. But the picking pennies exercise is very much like the jab.

If I was trying to get fast jabs then I wouldn't use the speed bag.
I don't find it increase my speed on anything with the speed bag. I just don't. It's a total waste of time to me.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Why won't I like your answer, you gave me something to think about. I was referring to speed bag, you are practicing it, I want to see what you get out of the speed bag after you train for a while that I did not get after a few months.
Because the exercise is really simple, really boring and from first looks seems stupid. It's far from anything that looks like real training. It doesn't train the punch but it trains the muscles that extend the arm in the same way that that punches are extended. Tension in the movement only exists at the very end for a short moment when the fingers try to grab the penny.

I will start the training tonight and get my before training videos. Then I can test it against the MMA to see if it helps with my slower reaction time.

In fact I will try what you said about the pennies.
Let me show you the right height for it. If you don't get the right height then the arm won't move the same way. The horse stance is just extra. Leg work out while picking up pennies. It's not necessary, just a better use of time to train something else while working on the speed.
One thing what you do might help me. You know when you see a fly, spider and stuff, you want to hit it and catch it. I found myself very tense and missed it a lot of times. The way you practice might help...............If not for punching, might help me catching some flies!!!
You laugh, but in highschool I did just that but I accidentally caught a bee. I thought it was fly until it stung the crap out of my finger lol.
 

isshinryuronin

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I am doubtful of the speed bag's usefulness, at least compared to alternatives. It's main problem, IMO, is that its benefit package is too limited. I see its limitations as follows:

1. It's too static, basically being in the same place for each strike. 2. Related to #1, the movement arc is too small, its location being too easy to predict. 3. Accordingly, the timing is too constant. The result of #'s 1, 2 and 3 is that it's possible to close one's eyes and still hit the bag consistently. 4. The striking motion is too short and does not accurately replicate actual fighting strikes. 5. It does not allow for a wide variety of strikes.

Much better, IMO, is the suspended bag, tethered on top and bottom as posted by KFW. It is not limited to the 5 restrictions set out above. It's more dynamic with a much wider range of motion, providing better practice in eye-hand coordination, developing better accuracy and timing than the boxing speed bag. Tracking the target and planning intercept angles is required. And it allows a wide variety of realistic strikes (even kicks) which can be executed with full extension and power. Not only does it develop more skills, it's also lot more fun. Almost any way you look at it, it's more bang for your buck.
 

Alan0354

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I am doubtful of the speed bag's usefulness, at least compared to alternatives. It's main problem, IMO, is that its benefit package is too limited. I see its limitations as follows:

1. It's too static, basically being in the same place for each strike. 2. Related to #1, the movement arc is too small, its location being too easy to predict. 3. Accordingly, the timing is too constant. The result of #'s 1, 2 and 3 is that it's possible to close one's eyes and still hit the bag consistently. 4. The striking motion is too short and does not accurately replicate actual fighting strikes. 5. It does not allow for a wide variety of strikes.

Much better, IMO, is the suspended bag, tethered on top and bottom as posted by KFW. It is not limited to the 5 restrictions set out above. It's more dynamic with a much wider range of motion, providing better practice in eye-hand coordination, developing better accuracy and timing than the boxing speed bag. Tracking the target and planning intercept angles is required. And it allows a wide variety of realistic strikes (even kicks) which can be executed with full extension and power. Not only does it develop more skills, it's also lot more fun. Almost any way you look at it, it's more bang for your buck.
Glad I am not the only one that feel the speed bag is useless. The main thing I got out of is TIMING. That you learn to SYNC with the bag bouncing. I never try closing my eyes, but theoretically, it's possible if you get the timing down. There is no fast hands requirement, just timing.

I got into speed bag because I kept seeing people train in movies. Remember Rocky movies, always on the speed bag. So I thought there got to be something to it.

I did spent time on it, like 5 minutes a day, at least 4 days a week for a few months. I don't think I was that bad. At the time, there were 3 sizes bags, the big, medium and small. You start with the big one( I think that's what JowGaWolf used in the video). When you get too comfortable, you go to the medium size. Then when you get comfortable, you go to the smallest size. I was down to the smallest size already and at least I can go non stop. So I could not be too bad. I did NOT see any positive effect from that at all.

It is more like playing music using the Metronome when playing music, you learn to follow the timing and the beat. That is VERY IMPORTANT for playing music. You are supposed to play the song completely with the metronome without going off beat. BUT for punching, you don't follow a constant timing. In fact, you want to train to react to random events. Last thing you want is to establish a rhythm.

I thought if all boxer practice on that, there got to be something to it. I did practice a few months, NOTHING.

The funny thing like JowGaWolf said, he practice with hammer fist. I saw people practice like that. Why? I can see JowGaWolf's reason because he is in MA, they use hammer fist. WHY the hell boxer practice with hammer fist? For what. They never use hammer fist!!!

Can this be something like in TMA, it was handed down from the older days, that people NEVER stop and question the validity and just keep on doing just to follow the tradition without questioning? I sure see a lot of that in MA here. I never really stop and think until I started talking here and stunned how many follow just because "IT IS".

Like I practice Iron Palm for years, 3 times a week 10 minutes each time. I heard so much about iron palm and all the hype. I determined to practice it. The only thing I got out of it is two carpal tunnel on my hands. I had to have surgery on left hand, it was so painful and took almost 1/2 a year to recover. I am still trying not to have surgery on my right hand so far. I GOT NOTHING OUT OF IT. I do not hit any harder on the heavy bag. I would have been much better served practicing hammer fist on the heavy bag. Hammer fist can hit harder than palm. So many LIES and people got hurt. Well at least, you just waste time on speed bag, you won't get hurt. Not like the IRON PALM.
 
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Jimmythebull

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His life the weight because of high blood pressure issues. His move alot because I work in IT abs sit on my butt all day. Between my workouts and having an MMA sparring partner I should continue to lose weight. I just can't get lazy or eat junk.
Are you on medication for high blood pressure? Yeah definitely watch your diet.
 
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JowGaWolf

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1. It's too static, basically being in the same place for each strike. 2. Related to #1, the movement arc is too small, its location being too easy to predict.
Here are some things that may help.
1. Use different strikes and move around and away from the bag. Change stance levels. This will help cut down on the prediction of the bag as the distance changes and the movement of the bag changes. How much does this help? I have no idea. I'm still trying to see which kung fu strikes and striking motion can I actually train on this thing. Trap + Backfist, and Parry +Back fist can be done on this with no problem..
4. The striking motion is too short and does not accurately replicate actual fighting strikes. 5. It does not allow for a wide variety of strikes.
You can do long strikes but so far, I've only been able to do long circular strikes. I can train the movement but I can't train the correct timing. In other words the timing of the bag is incorrect. I can land the first strike with correct timing but not the second. In my opinion I would be better just using one of the TKD hand pads so that both of my punches can flow through. The other problem is that hitting the wood supporting the bad now becomes a risk. Vertical punches, Hammer fist, back fist is the only thing that I've been able to get reliable motion from. Some of it can be hit like a speed bag while others are going to be one strike hits, then reset body position move, then strike again. The swinging of the allows that energy.

While I can hit the speed bag harder, My simple tennis ball on a rope allows me to use the swing of the ball to slip the movement in various ways. The more that I hit the speed bag the less I think it was meant for modern boxing. If the bag had a longer swing arch then it would be more useful, but would loose the "speed element"

Some one will need to verify but I've found these pictures. and here you can see the bag has a longer swing arc, which to me is more . beneficial. I'll try to read some of this stuff Speed Bag History Speed Bag Central/
The more I look at these pictures the more I think of the Maize bag which I do like. more than the speed bag
1663329960438.png


1663330068705.png


1663330134141.png


1663330174778.png
 
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JowGaWolf

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The funny thing like JowGaWolf said, he practice with hammer fist. I saw people practice like that. Why? I can see JowGaWolf's reason because he is in MA, they use hammer fist. WHY the hell boxer practice with hammer fist? For what. They never use hammer fist!!!
My understanding is that early boxing had more strikes than what we see today. So I'm guessing the equipment was originally designed with those strikes in mind. The hammer fist is a short range strike and the distance is about the same striking distance that one would stand from the speed bag. In terms of finding applicable strikes for the heavy bag, I can do more kung fu striking on the bag than boxing striking. This is especially true if I'm not trying to make it bounce back in rhythm. Strike once move around then strike again while the bag has a little swing to it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Are you on medication for high blood pressure? Yeah definitely watch your diet.
Yep. It's getting better and I may be able to get off it so long as I stick to a good diet and keep my exercise up. The biggest issue is probably stress. I gotta just learn to let stuff go and make better choices of what I occupy my mind with. My job is stressful so eventually I'll change jobs as I don't think I can make it less stressful where I work.

Low sodium, lots of water, medication, diet, and exercises that make me sweat. I'm throwing everything at trying to get that blood pressure right and off the medication.
 

Jimmythebull

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Yep. It's getting better and I may be able to get off it so long as I stick to a good diet and keep my exercise up. The biggest issue is probably stress. I gotta just learn to let stuff go and make better choices of what I occupy my mind with. My job is stressful so eventually I'll change jobs as I don't think I can make it less stressful where I work.

Low sodium, lots of water, medication, diet, and exercises that make me sweat. I'm throwing everything at trying to get that blood pressure right and off the medication.
You'll make it. Luckily you're still young(ish)
And have a positive attitude. Do you have time to go walking? I remember watching a film about walking for about 1 hour in the evenings & they tested the blood. They purposely gave them a high fat breakfast & found out that the people walking in the evenings lost a lot of the harmful fat in their blood
 
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JowGaWolf

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So many LIES and people got hurt. Well at least, you just waste time on speed bag,
ha ha ha.. it's not a waste of time for me. b
You'll make it. Luckily you're still young(ish)
And have a positive attitude. Do you have time to go walking? I remember watching a film about walking for about 1 hour in the evenings & they tested the blood. They purposely gave them a high fat breakfast & found out that the people walking in the evenings lost a lot of the harmful fat in their blood
I used to walk a mile in the evenings, then it turned into a mile while doing dumbbell curls. Looks like I should start walking again.. I can walk it before hitting the gym.
 

Alan0354

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Here are some things that may help.
1. Use different strikes and move around and away from the bag. Change stance levels. This will help cut down on the prediction of the bag as the distance changes and the movement of the bag changes. How much does this help? I have no idea. I'm still trying to see which kung fu strikes and striking motion can I actually train on this thing. Trap + Backfist, and Parry +Back fist can be done on this with no problem..

You can do long strikes but so far, I've only been able to do long circular strikes. I can train the movement but I can't train the correct timing. In other words the timing of the bag is incorrect. I can land the first strike with correct timing but not the second. In my opinion I would be better just using one of the TKD hand pads so that both of my punches can flow through. The other problem is that hitting the wood supporting the bad now becomes a risk. Vertical punches, Hammer fist, back fist is the only thing that I've been able to get reliable motion from. Some of it can be hit like a speed bag while others are going to be one strike hits, then reset body position move, then strike again. The swinging of the allows that energy.

While I can hit the speed bag harder, My simple tennis ball on a rope allows me to use the swing of the ball to slip the movement in various ways. The more that I hit the speed bag the less I think it was meant for modern boxing. If the bag had a longer swing arch then it would be more useful, but would loose the "speed element"

Some one will need to verify but I've found these pictures. and here you can see the bag has a longer swing arc, which to me is more . beneficial. I'll try to read some of this stuff Speed Bag History Speed Bag Central/
The more I look at these pictures the more I think of the Maize bag which I do like. more than the speed bag
View attachment 28884

View attachment 28885

View attachment 28886

View attachment 28887
Yes, this is a lot more useful. Remember I talked about the big 12lbs ball on the upper right of my picture. The one in a net? I found it more useful, more realistic. You can hit hard. I want to put elastic rope tie to the floor to make the response time a little shorter, but too bad I run out of room. The front of the car is in the way.

I really run out of room, two heavy bags IS THE MOST IMPORTANT in my book, I got to have them their, there goes my space. I am really thinking about putting in a 3rd car garage, NOT for another car, but as workout room and workshop that I do a lot of work on different things.
 

Alan0354

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ha ha ha.. it's not a waste of time for me. b

I used to walk a mile in the evenings, then it turned into a mile while doing dumbbell curls. Looks like I should start walking again.. I can walk it before hitting the gym.
If you find any improvement after a few months, let me know what you think you improved from speed bag. I'll see what I missed.

What is "b"?
 
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JowGaWolf

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If you find any improvement after a few months, let me know what you think you improved from speed bag. I'll see what I missed.

What is "b"?
in this case b? is just a typo.
 

Buka

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I am doubtful of the speed bag's usefulness, at least compared to alternatives. It's main problem, IMO, is that its benefit package is too limited. I see its limitations as follows:

1. It's too static, basically being in the same place for each strike. 2. Related to #1, the movement arc is too small, its location being too easy to predict. 3. Accordingly, the timing is too constant. The result of #'s 1, 2 and 3 is that it's possible to close one's eyes and still hit the bag consistently. 4. The striking motion is too short and does not accurately replicate actual fighting strikes. 5. It does not allow for a wide variety of strikes.

Much better, IMO, is the suspended bag, tethered on top and bottom as posted by KFW. It is not limited to the 5 restrictions set out above. It's more dynamic with a much wider range of motion, providing better practice in eye-hand coordination, developing better accuracy and timing than the boxing speed bag. Tracking the target and planning intercept angles is required. And it allows a wide variety of realistic strikes (even kicks) which can be executed with full extension and power. Not only does it develop more skills, it's also lot more fun. Almost any way you look at it, it's more bang for your buck.
You hit the nail on the head, brother. Speed bags are great for learning to "keep your hands up." Most of the actual strikes used hitting a speed bag are unrelated to fighting or sparring.

The double end bag (what we always called it) is far more difficult to use, and striking it is more influential to one's actual use of the hands for fighting.

As a side note - In my old boxing gym there was an older, retired fighter who would dazzle on the speed bag. He would hit it and the sound of him hitting it was "Sweet Georgia Brown", which was unmistakeable. Us young guys would sit around him in a circle and watch, sometimes singing along with his beat. It's one of my favorite memories.
 
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JowGaWolf

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If you find any improvement after a few months, let me know what you think you improved from speed bag. I'll see what I missed.

What is "b"?
Only one way to know is to test it out. I'll see if can consistently land hammer strikes on my sparring partner.
 

Yanli

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So I thought I would share a little of bit of my training. I've been trying to use this speed bag to train my kung fu. The gym finally decided to invest in a quality speed bag and it's harder than the last one that they had. Before I used to be able to hit it everyday, but now it's maybe 2 or three times a week. Here is some of my kung fu elements that I train.

1. Hammer fist conditioning
2, Rolling the arm into a backfist.
3. Long Fist Strikes.
4. Backfist conditioning.
5. Eye cordination (not sure if I'm improving it or making it worst, I won't know until I spar again)
6. Had to guard head speed. (training the speed to quickly raise my hand from my leg to cover my head and then to strike the bag... not shown here.)

Other than that I'm just warming up for the rest of my work out which is more in lines with actual fighting. and better strength conditioning. The biggest changed that I've noticed using the speed bag is that my shoulders are stronger. It's good for the linear stuff but not so much for the circular stuff I tried to do long fist strikes on the speed bag but it killed the correct timing and knuckles, so I won't be doing that anymore.

The new speed bag is the only thing I've hit so far that makes me want to use wraps to protect my hands. I'll see how things go with the conditioning of my hands. I'll just scale back the abuse to 2 or 3 times a week for speed bag training. I usually do 1 minute rounds but today, I was working in my vertical back fist.
As far as the eye hand coordination, I teach my students to practice looking at your opponents body and mentally feel in your mind where each target is. You never want to look at your target, just see the target is in your mind, and feel your hand or leg going towards that target in your mind. You an do the same thing with the speed bag.
 
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JowGaWolf

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So in less than a year the gym has gone through 3 speed bags and now has a smaller one. The smaller speed bags are hard in comparison to the larger ones and it's been a while since I've been on it. I went to long without hitting it so I've gotten out of the habit of hitting it. I may hit it for a warm up but I'm not dedicated to that as a warm up or as training the shoulders. Probably the last thing I have to say about the boxing speed bag for a while.
 
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