Shaolin here, Shaolin there, Shaolin everywhere...

[Jeff604]

Hi,

Straight to the point : were there locations in China around 500 AD where Wushu techniques were taught other than the Shaolin-Shi temple ?

I was able to find a great deal of information about Chinese martial arts from -2650 to 500. Then everything seems to converge to Shaolin-Shi, and every subsequent styles of Wu-shu seems to stem from there, either "for real" or just in the mind of masters trying to attract new disciples with the "Shaolin" label.

Any info on that ?

thx !

 

[clfsean]

Sure there was, but it wasn't referred to as Shaolin.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, actually shaolin is probably much less a contributor to kung fu than people want to realize. It was simply a place that helped support cma and not the birthplace or even the really the place that made kung fu famous.

7sm

 

[Jeff604]

Thanks for your input !

Sure there was, but it wasn't referred to as Shaolin.

ok, and so they were referred to as ... ?

Yes, actually shaolin is probably much less a contributor to kung fu than people want to realize. It was simply a place that helped support cma and not the birthplace or even the really the place that made kung fu famous.

The real birthplaces being ... ?

From a different perspective :what are the main Chinese MA today that proclaim to have no link whatsoever with Shaolin Kung-Fu ?

 

[7starmantis]

The real birthplaces being ... ?

Many places all over China. Southern, Northern, Mountain top, etc. Kung fu was around and being practiced heavily way before Shaolin Temple learned of it.

7sm

 

[Jeff604]

Many places all over China. Southern, Northern, Mountain top, etc. Kung fu was around and being practiced heavily way before Shaolin Temple learned of it.

Some recommended books to learn more about that ?

 

[clfsean]

Thanks for your input !

ok, and so they were referred to as ... ?

All sorts of different names... some specifc names like Hong Quan or Shuai Jiao others by generic names like boxing, foot fighting, fist play, sword play, etc...

Why?

 

[7starmantis]

Some recommended books to learn more about that ?

The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung Fu by Adam Hsu

Its really more in depth about kung fu, but goes into the shaolin myth pretty hard.

7sm

 

[Jeff604]

Why?

To know where to look so as to find Chinese MA that are untied to the Shaolin tradition.

 

[7starmantis]

To know where to look so as to find Chinese MA that are untied to the Shaolin tradition.

Would you mind telling us why your wanting to find CMA untied to shaolin?
Shaolin was just a place where CMA was taught and studied. In reality there is very little left of what shaolin was even at shaolin temple.

7sm

 

[Jeff604]

Would you mind telling us why your wanting to find CMA untied to shaolin?

ok : I'm trying to figure out how Chinese Martial Arts came to life. So I made a few researches in books, online resources...

Until 500 AD, I found references to various fighting techiques across the country : Go-ti, Chang-quan, Chi-chi-san, Wu-ni, Kuo-shu (if you know anything about these last three, I'd be very interested by the way !).

But when I reach this period, every single text I found starts talking exclusively about Shaolin. That's why I wonder : what about the development of Chinese MA at the same time in other parts of the country ?
To make myself even clearer, I'll give you a quote from a MA encyclopaedia I have : "the major part of the wushu fighting styles find their origin in Shaolin". ok, and what about "the minor part" then ?

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

I recall reading years ago an article which described chi-chi san as an art which emphasized striking pressure points. Not much more info was given than that.

Kuo-shu translates as "national arts" and is (or was) the name which was popular in Taiwan to describe generically the CMA (rather than using the word "kung-fu").

 

[kONG]

Hello everyone Im new here,
I would like to recommend a great book I just read called, "Spring Autumn, The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts-5000 yrs" by Kang Gewu,
it covers the history and development of CMA in a chronological order from ancient times to modern sports wushu. It doesnt go into great detail, and of course theres alot missing (5000 yrs covered in 108 pgs) and alot of stuff that could be argued and debated endlessly, but its a good source of reference and puts thing into perspective in a great way. Basically it states the facts and vital data in a most consice manner.
Very few styles can actually trace their origin to the Shaolin temple with any authenticity, and origins of popular styles such as Xingyi, Taiji, Baji, Bagua, Cha Quan so on are certainly well known with no connection at all with the temple, although of course a pletora of styles certainly have been and are practised at the temple many will tell you the only set that with any historical authenticity can be traced to Shaolin is the 18 Lohan Qigong said to have been created by Da Mo, and even that is questionable.

 

[Jeff604]

I would like to recommend a great book I just read called, "Spring Autumn, The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts-5000 yrs" by Kang Gewu,

Seems indeed to be a very interesting point of entry to CMA, according to the reviews I read on the Net about this book.

Thanks for the info !

 

[kONG]

It definately is, although kind of a heavy read, very academical and to the point,,,
The Swordpolishers Record is also an excellent book and maybe a little more accessible, Adam Hsu is very clear in his writing and has a wealth of experience and personal history in the arts. (Adam Hsu actually wrote one of the forewords/recommodations to Spring Autumn)
BTW Ji Ji Quan (if chi chi is just a different romanization?) was one of the ancient terms for wushu, particularly wushu for practical use but also in general.

 

[Flying Crane]

Keep in mind that throughout history, people have been fighting each other all over the globe. Probably every society had some form of combat technique that was passed down from generation to generation, dating back way before the Shaolin Temple came into the picture.

It is my understanding that virtually every village and town in old China had its own martial system. Many of these systems were similar to each other, but many were not. These systems composed the first line of defense for the villagers against bandits and brigands and such who might be in the neighborhood and up to no good. Probably in the modern day many of these systems converged or were lost, but I believe there are still many many local systems that exist in China that we in the west have never seen.

I personally feel it is naive when people/authors claim that Chinese martial arts began at the Shaolin Temple with the arrival of Damo. This lineage simply became the most well-known in the modern world.

Much of the martial development that happened at the Temple was a result of others who came to the temple, often as a political refugee looking for a place to hide, and brought their own martial arts with them. The temple then became something of a mixing pot for these arts that originated elsewhere.

michael

 

[Jeff604]

Much of the martial development that happened at the Temple was a result of others who came to the temple, often as a political refugee looking for a place to hide, and brought their own martial arts with them. The temple then became something of a mixing pot for these arts that originated elsewhere.

That's also my understanding of the phenomenon now.

Thank you all for your enriching contributions !

 

[InvisibleFist]

One thing is pretty clear: The Chinese martial arts are derived from indian martial arts, and probably entered China along with buddhism. The Chinese and Indian arts have similar morphology: the horse stance, solo forms.

Saying that Tamo brought Kung Fu (and Buddhism) to China is a little like saying that Pythagoras "brought" the concept of reincarnation to Greece. He probably wasn't the first or the only one, but he was the most prominent exponent of the idea, thats probably how it is with DaMo.

My theory is that Shaolin was something like a University, where warriors retired to teach their arts. As such it was the archives and repository of all the different arts.

There are "non-Shaolin" lineages. The most famous of these is the WuDang arts, these are not Buddhist, but Taoist, and are centered on the WuDang temple. Tai Chi, BaGua, and XingYi are all WuDang.

 

[clfsean]

Eh I'd put the Muslims over the Wudang stuff as far as measures of fame. The Muslim systems (Tan Tui, Hua, Cha, Baji, Xin Yi Liu He, etc... ) are all known for fighting. The Wudang stuff has lots of legends & stories to be sure. But the Muslims have a fighting history that's well documented.

 

[mantis]

Many places all over China. Southern, Northern, Mountain top, etc. Kung fu was around and being practiced heavily way before Shaolin Temple learned of it.

7sm

im trying to catch any of those so-called temples in northern china using google earth...
it's a very powerful tool, but i dont know where to look..
china isnt the smallest place either!