Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not at all the same thing. Spontaneously reacting to a coach's prompts versus a pre-arranged, highly choreographed series of movements. They're both training exercises, but that's pretty much where the comparison begins and ends.

I think they have overlap, and can be the same thing in some ways. But they are rarely used the same way, and that seems to be the bigger difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OP is right.

If you were going to build a case for Kata it can't be built on the effectiveness of something else.

I mean let's go the other way jazz ballet has similarities to Kata and is not very effective for learning to fight.

These are very common fallacies that seem to make sense but don't necessarily hold up to scrutiny.

This also doesn't mean Kata isn't effective it just means the argument is dumb. That would be based on its merits as well.

And with all of this i will still make the case that Bunkai is where stuff becomes ineffective because it tends to work backwards.

I think the comparison to shadow boxing usually comes up in response to something like “Kata is stupid. It’s a pre-set séquence, and you can’t know what will come next in a real fight. “ That is true of shadow boxing and pretty much all drills, too.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Shu-Ha-Ri is not a martial art. It is a Japanese method for transmitting and art or skill. It has been used for lots of things in addition to martial arts. Its worth looking up, there are quite a few articles about it that google can find.

Shu is the first step. Here you learn kata. Kata is a sequence that is to be learned and practiced exactly. (this is the part, the only part, that many people took in the Japanese martial arts training. I suspect because, its all they got to in their training in Japan, before returning back home.) These sequences are created to teach the basics of the movement, the principles and core ideas of the art being taught.

Ha is the next stage. This is where the student needs to create variations to the kata. Let me repeat that... many folks miss this very important point. The student is encouraged by the instructor to add variation to the kata. The instructor is involved and helps the student to create and evaluate their divergences from the kata. The idea is for the student to express the same principles and ideas, in new ways, while still demonstrating an understanding for the core basics.

Ri is the final stage. In this stage,the kata is thrown away. The student now has an understanding of all the core principles and ideas and has mastered the skills. The student is now free to express those things however they want. This does not mean that they necessarily abandon doing the kata from the Shu stage. If they are to teach, they need to still do that kata. However, when they do that kata, it has much more in it. They can then create their own kata or methods of training. The idea is for them to continue onwards, using the core principles, ideas and skills to help them expand on that art as far as they wish to take it.

What we commonly see from traditional martial arts schools, where they do kata... is completely opposite. Variation is frowned on. Exploration is frowned on. Questions are frowned on. But, the full method actually follows the way music is taught very successfully.

In fact, I would say that even boxing and MMA use very similar systems, just with different names, if named at all. When a new student starts... he is taught drills and exercises to be done exactly. As they learn the skills, they start to adapt. A good coach will help the student adapt the techniques to their abilities. The student will eventually put his own drills together and combinations and find new ways to apply the what he has learned.

Saying kata sucks because kata, by itself, never produced a good fighter is both accurate and the same as saying jumping rope sucks because it, by itself, never produced a good boxer. Both of those exercises can be used to make great fighters and boxers, if used properly in conjunction with a complete system of training.

A very good summery of Shu Ha Ri. You wrote something very important that deserves to be stressed: Despite progressing thru the 3 stages, "This does not mean that they necessarily abandon doing the kata from the Shu stage." It is because of mastering the Shu that it is possible to progress to Ri. You must thoroughly understand the kata, inside and out, before you can transcend it. At least, that's my take on it.

There is another important point re: Shu Ha Ri that was not part of your excellent post that I feel must be brought up. That is the time frame between each of the stages. Whether you are referring to tea, sword or karate, time is an element which must be considered. The Oriental concept of time is different than that in the West. What we Westerners may think is a long time in the pursuit of an art may be 10 years. In Japan, they may view that as just an introduction and not consider a long time being any less than 30 years.

In the time when some modern Western karate dojos give out an intermediate belt (say one year), in the old style Okinawan dojos of the past, the student is just then allowed to start taking class (the previous twelve months spent cleaning the dojo and merely watching class.) When the modern Western student is testing for their Brown belt (two to three years), the old style Okinawan student has just been considered as having proficiently learned their very first kata.

IMO, karate's Shu stage lasts till 2nd degree black. Ha may last till 5th or even 6th degree (if taught by an enlightened Sensei). Only after that may one approach mastery and enter the Ri stage where the art can spontaneously flow out of them as a form a self expression, while adhering to the core elements of Shu and Ha.

I thought it necessary to spend some time on this matter of time, since we Westerners (me included) tend to be short sighted and impatient, which I think is our cultural weakness, and wanted to be sure some readers out there don't think Shu Ha Ri is as easy as 1 - 2 - 3.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you can’t know what will come next in a real fight. “ That is true of shadow boxing and pretty much all drills, too.

This is not always true.

One thing I'm sure is when I attack your right leg, if you step back your right leg, you will give me an opportunity to attack your left leg. If you step back your left leg again, you will give me a chance to attack your right leg again.

When you step back your right leg, I cannot attack your right leg again because it's too far away from me.

So when you do shadow boxing, you still have to following the same logic. You just can't punch anyway that you feel like. That will be dancing and not MA training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shadow boxing is spontaenous and fluid. Kata is a choreographed sequences of moves.

Spontaneous is not the proper term. The shadow boxing still have to follow the same logic as the combo training.

For example, in your shadow boxing, does it make sense for you to do a side kick, followed by an elbow strike? It doesn't make sense. Why? Because after your side kick, the distance will be too far for your elbow strike.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shu-Ha-Ri is not a martial art. It is a Japanese method for transmitting and art or skill. It has been used for lots of things in addition to martial arts. Its worth looking up, there are quite a few articles about it that google can find.

Shu is the first step. Here you learn kata. Kata is a sequence that is to be learned and practiced exactly. (this is the part, the only part, that many people took in the Japanese martial arts training. I suspect because, its all they got to in their training in Japan, before returning back home.) These sequences are created to teach the basics of the movement, the principles and core ideas of the art being taught.

Ha is the next stage. This is where the student needs to create variations to the kata. Let me repeat that... many folks miss this very important point. The student is encouraged by the instructor to add variation to the kata. The instructor is involved and helps the student to create and evaluate their divergences from the kata. The idea is for the student to express the same principles and ideas, in new ways, while still demonstrating an understanding for the core basics.

Ri is the final stage. In this stage,the kata is thrown away. The student now has an understanding of all the core principles and ideas and has mastered the skills. The student is now free to express those things however they want. This does not mean that they necessarily abandon doing the kata from the Shu stage. If they are to teach, they need to still do that kata. However, when they do that kata, it has much more in it. They can then create their own kata or methods of training. The idea is for them to continue onwards, using the core principles, ideas and skills to help them expand on that art as far as they wish to take it.

What we commonly see from traditional martial arts schools, where they do kata... is completely opposite. Variation is frowned on. Exploration is frowned on. Questions are frowned on. But, the full method actually follows the way music is taught very successfully.

In fact, I would say that even boxing and MMA use very similar systems, just with different names, if named at all. When a new student starts... he is taught drills and exercises to be done exactly. As they learn the skills, they start to adapt. A good coach will help the student adapt the techniques to their abilities. The student will eventually put his own drills together and combinations and find new ways to apply the what he has learned.

Saying kata sucks because kata, by itself, never produced a good fighter is both accurate and the same as saying jumping rope sucks because it, by itself, never produced a good boxer. Both of those exercises can be used to make great fighters and boxers, if used properly in conjunction with a complete system of training.

I'd heard a few references to Shu-Ha-Ri before, but never a good, concise explanation. I'm curious - is the progression traditionally linear (stay in Shu for a while, then progress to Ha), or is it an overlapping progression (in Shu in some things, while in Ha or Ri in others, with some back-and-forth intermediate stages)? I ask because I've seen in my training exactly some of the lack of progression you refer to, and with some of my prior instructors it seems to be going backwards (they teach less progression than they used to).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I thought it necessary to spend some time on this matter of time, since we Westerners (me included) tend to be short sighted and impatient, which I think is our cultural weakness, and wanted to be sure some readers out there don't think Shu Ha Ri is as easy as 1 - 2 - 3.

I'm not sure that's necessarily an accurate depiction. I suspect it's a cultural difference of progression. We - by habit and culture - expect to progress in waves. We get a little something, progress in that little something a little bit, then move on to the next related something, putting it all together as we go. That seems not to be the anticipated progression in the Asian tradition you've described here, which pairs that first something with other basic things, all held at a basic level before any of them progress.

So, while a western boxing coach might teach a jab, then some footwork, then a cross (all to some very rudimentary level), then a jab-cross combo with some footwork, then polish them all in situ....someone using the traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method would apparently focus on getting each individual piece more polished before combining them. I'm not sure the former is about impatience, but a different sequence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is not always true.

One thing I'm sure is when I attack your right leg, if you step back your right leg, you will give me an opportunity to attack your left leg. If you step back your left leg again, you will give me a chance to attack your right leg again.

When you step back your right leg, I cannot attack your right leg again because it's too far away from me.

So when you do shadow boxing, you still have to following the same logic. You just can't punch anyway that you feel like. That will be dancing and not MA training.

You made my point right here: "when I attack your right leg, if you". That "if" is the uncertainty I'm talking about. There are very few points where we can have certainty about what a person will do. We can know what a given movement of theirs may make open, but even then it depends upon their balance and structure.

 

[drop bear]

I think the comparison to shadow boxing usually comes up in response to something like “Kata is stupid. It’s a pre-set séquence, and you can’t know what will come next in a real fight. “ That is true of shadow boxing and pretty much all drills, too.

Shadow boxing isn't pre set though

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That "if" is the uncertainty I'm talking about.

Will you be able to cover all cases?

If you attack my leading leg, either I step back that leg, or I don't. Can there be the 3rd case?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shadow boxing isn't pre set though

But shadow boxing is not you punch any way that you may feel like to. You still have to follow a basic logic.

For example,

A hammer fist, upper cut combo make sense, but an upper cut, hammer fist combo doesn't make sense.

When you hit with an upper cut, your opponent may move his head back, it will be too far for you to punch him with your hammer fist.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm not sure that's necessarily an accurate depiction. I suspect it's a cultural difference of progression. We - by habit and culture - expect to progress in waves. We get a little something, progress in that little something a little bit, then move on to the next related something, putting it all together as we go. That seems not to be the anticipated progression in the Asian tradition you've described here, which pairs that first something with other basic things, all held at a basic level before any of them progress.

So, while a western boxing coach might teach a jab, then some footwork, then a cross (all to some very rudimentary level), then a jab-cross combo with some footwork, then polish them all in situ....someone using the traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method would apparently focus on getting each individual piece more polished before combining them. I'm not sure the former is about impatience, but a different sequence.

This seems to be similar to the reply you made to WAB25. I think the progression is part linear in that some things must be learned as other things are built upon it. But I can certainly see it being overlapping - being at one stage in some things and a more advanced stage in others. Obviously if I practice a move for 10 years, I will be better at it than a new move I just learned a month ago. So, we are at different stages for different things. Not sure why you would think I meant otherwise.

In my example of black belt degrees, we are talking many years of progression. I figure that by 2nd degree, most all the basics will have been well learned; by 5th degree, full understanding of the movements will have been pretty much attained. I think you are looking at it one single move at a time as you referred to a jab, jab cross, jab cross & further combo. Learning a single three move combo over a couple of months is not what reaching Ri is about. You have hardly scratched the surface of the first stage, Shu, at this point.

With respect, this is the short sightedness (concept of time) I was referring to in my post that we Westerners are subject to. In your boxing analogy, Ha, the second stage would not even be reached until you have some wins as a pro, or a Golden Gloves quarter-finalist. So its not a move-by-move, month-by-month kind of thing. Rather a full kata-by-kata and concept-by-concept and years-by-years kind of thing. Don't get hung up on the individual trees and miss the grander forest.
.
There is no test or "aha" moment when you get to a particular stage in some facet of training. It's more analog than digital. Look at Shu Ha Ri as a decades long, layered, guided journey. This and my first post are the best I can do to explain it. But I'm a Westerner with that culture's orientation so may not have the skills or understanding to do any better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shadow boxing isn't pre set though

It can be, I suppose, but that's not the point. Even when you improv in shadow boxing, you're practicing a sequence that may not have application to someone's response. That's the point I see folks most often making when they bring up shadowboxing in a kata discussion. It's a more appropriate argument about combination drills, though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Will you be able to cover all cases?

If you attack my leading leg, either I step back that leg, or I don't. Can there be the 3rd case?

Yes. They could lift that leg. They could drop more weight into that leg. They could counter-attack (bare minimum two more options).


Principles cover those options over time, but any given combo sequence does not, because it cannot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But shadow boxing is not you punch any way that you may feel like to. You still have to follow a basic logic.

For example,

A hammer fist, upper cut combo make sense, but an upper cut, hammer fist combo doesn't make sense.

When you hit with an upper cut, your opponent may move his head back, it will be too far for you to punch him with your hammer fist.

I don't think that's at all cotrary to his point.

 

[drop bear]

It can be, I suppose, but that's not the point. Even when you improv in shadow boxing, you're practicing a sequence that may not have application to someone's response. That's the point I see folks most often making when they bring up shadowboxing in a kata discussion. It's a more appropriate argument about combination drills, though.

Shadow boxing should have application to someones response though.

 

[wab25]

Here is an in depth article on Shu-Ha-Ri: Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

Its a little lengthy, but goes into detail about each stage, and the process it takes to go through each stage.

I'd heard a few references to Shu-Ha-Ri before, but never a good, concise explanation. I'm curious - is the progression traditionally linear (stay in Shu for a while, then progress to Ha), or is it an overlapping progression (in Shu in some things, while in Ha or Ri in others, with some back-and-forth intermediate stages)? I ask because I've seen in my training exactly some of the lack of progression you refer to, and with some of my prior instructors it seems to be going backwards (they teach less progression than they used to).

I believe the Shu-Ha-Ri process is more linear, though there is some back and forth. But, the three phases are basic phases of learning. When you learned to tie your shoe, you were taught to hold this string in this hand, and the that string in that hand. There was discussion about exactly where each string went, and how to use your fingers to manipulate it. After a while, you just tied your shoes... you were doing the exact same thing, only now you didn't think about it. Later, you started double knotting it, so that they would not come undone, or it became cool to use two different colored laces together, or you wanted to change the way they look, so you used different knots or your lace broke, and you had to improvise...

The Japanese system identifies these stages, and lays them out. But, if you learn anything, you probably went through this same sequence, whether you named the stages, or even recognized that there were stages.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about what kata is. I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from people not realizing that it is only the first step. When people think kata is the sum total, they start using it to limit what they can do. Instead it is a tool that should be used to expand what they can do.

The traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method may not be for everyone. Other methods of learning may work better for different people. Not everyone may have the patience required to do the traditional Shu-Ha-Ri method. However, most methods (all of the ones I am aware of) include those three stages, though the arrangement may be different. Every time I have gone to a BJJ class, they demonstrate a technique. As students, we do the basic drill, step by step exactly as shown. Then we get shown little variations and we drill those. Then resistance is added and we do the proscribed technique despite the resistance. Then we roll. Most instructors encourage the students to try applying the technique they just drilled while rolling. While this may not be as formal as Shu-Ha-Ri... those 3 stages were certainly present.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is an in depth article on Shu-Ha-Ri: Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai
Its a little lengthy, but goes into detail about each stage, and the process it takes to go through each stage.

It has been a while since I read this piece and had forgotten Takamura Sensei's name. Glad you posted the link. A very good article and a must, I believe, for anyone interested in understanding kata instruction and its place in the overall scheme of things.

Reveals several concepts that have been discussed and debated here on MartialTalk, many times falling on deaf ears by those that criticize kata, not really understanding it. This does a better job than we did in explaining it in detail and gets into the essence of Shu Ha Ri. Very eloquent. I was tempted to refer to Shu Ha Ri as a philosophy in my posts, but having reread this article, this idea has only been reinforced.

As I responded to Jerry's post, your ending example of going thru the 3 stages by learning a technique over the course of a single or several classes, is not true Shu Ha Ri, but a pale, abbreviated sketch that hints at its true nature - but I understand your comparison. I know you did not equate the two as being the same (please take no offense) - Just wanted to again stress the time factor required for the true evolution from one stage to the next. You are correct when you refer to the "patience required" to go thru the process and reap the benefits.

 

[Buka]

There are different skill levels of those that shadowbox,

And I'm pretty sure there are different levels of those that practice Kata.

 

[drop bear]

Shadow boxing should have application to someones response though.