Senpo Kaiten/Rolling question

[Ando-]

I used to practice bujinkan (ninjutsu) years ago, and we did a lot of rolling exercises. I'm now trying to get back into cardio and possibly some kind of martial art but not as dogmatically disciplined as ninjutsu or kendo and similar ones (sorry if I offended someone there).

I find rolling excercises very useful so I tried to get back to them, but the problem is that we had this kind of padded floor in the dojo that lowered the impacts a lot and made everything easier. Now that I try to to these on the floor it is really painful every time I do it, specially in the shoulders.

I know this can be mastered to the point to do this perfectly fluent in solid floors too, but nobody in the dojo mastered it to that point because they only practiced in the padded floor, which I think it's just an incomplete training (I even remember black belts doing basic obvious mistakes there), but the real problem is that I don't have a padded floor and I don't even plan on having one, so I must (and want to) just learn how to do it the proper way.

So the question is... does anyone here know how to master this enough to the point it won't hurt anymore on solid floor? I'm asking here because although I remember the tips and logic I was taught in Ninjutsu, it still feels like it lacks the logic to make this actually fluent.


This guy seems to be doing it right (go to 0:22)

But I'm not sure if the key is having more strenght in the arm or what. I'm starting from below though because that exactly kind of rolling would be worse at the moment.

 

[WaterGal]

Rolling and falling practice is always going to hurt on a hard surface. Doing it right means that you don't get injured.

I'd recommend practicing outside on the grass, or buying a folding gymnastics mat if you want to practice inside.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's why your school had the padded floor. So you could practice the falls and rolls in a way that doesn't hurt so much. The way to get good enough that it doesn't hurt on a hard floor is to learn on a padded floor.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Practicing on the grass outside works well. That's how I learned.

You don't need and shouldn't be using strength in the arm for your rolls.

The video you posted isn't bad, but it's somewhat different from the way rolls are taught in ninjutsu. The video below should give you an idea. This approach to rolling will be less painful on hard floors.

 

[Ando-]

That's why your school had the padded floor. So you could practice the falls and rolls in a way that doesn't hurt so much. The way to get good enough that it doesn't hurt on a hard floor is to learn on a padded floor.

Yes I know, but shouldn't the training go beyond that? because even the black belts said it hurts on solid floor, maybe the padded floor helps for starters but what then?

The video you posted isn't bad, but it's somewhat different from the way rolls are taught in ninjutsu. The video below should give you an idea. This approach to rolling will be less painful on hard floors.

Yes, that's what I meant by starting from below, i just posted that video because the solid floor is seen and the guy makes a roll that is even harder to make fluent on a solid floor, but yes.

To be honest, when I was into Ninjutsu, the rolls didn't hurt as much as now on solid floor, maybe it's becuase I'm not used to it after years of dropping it or something.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes I know, but shouldn't the training go beyond that? because even the black belts said it hurts on solid floor, maybe the padded floor helps for starters but what then?

With enough practice it hurts less when you roll on hard floor, but I doubt that it is ever entirely painless, especially if you do more than a couple. And most especially if you're not a kid. I know I can get away with a breakfall or two on hard floor and be fine, but more than that and there's a stiff price to pay the next day. Maybe there are others who can roll on gravel and concrete all day and never get a bruise.

Even if you had gotten good enough to roll on hard floors before, you said you've been out for years, so you're going to be re-learning.

 

[Ando-]

thank you all for your answers.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes I know, but shouldn't the training go beyond that? because even the black belts said it hurts on solid floor, maybe the padded floor helps for starters but what then?

With practice you can get to the point where the discomfort of falling or rolling on hard surfaces is minimized. When I was younger I would occasionally show off by doing dive rolls on concrete or hard floors. Sometimes we'd even test ourselves by rolling on gravel.

For real life self-protection, that's all you need. If you slip on the ice or are tripped by an attacker all you need is to be able to land and get up without injury. In either of those situations you probably will only have to do it once, maybe a few times in a row if you're unlucky.

The problem is that minimized does not mean non-existent. If you are engaged in martial arts training that involves being thrown you might have to take a fall 20, 30, 50, even 100 times or more in a single class. If you do it that many times in a row on hard surfaces, it's going to take a toll on your body. If you train like that every day, you're asking to eventually get injured.

Yes, that's what I meant by starting from below, i just posted that video because the solid floor is seen and the guy makes a roll that is even harder to make fluent on a solid floor, but yes.

It's not just starting lower. The practitioner in the clip you posted was maintaining a much larger circle with his body while rolling. Rolls in Ninjutsu tend to be much more compact.

To be honest, when I was into Ninjutsu, the rolls didn't hurt as much as now on solid floor, maybe it's becuase I'm not used to it after years of dropping it or something.

Yep. Consistency of practice makes a big difference.

 

[Ando-]

It's not just starting lower. The practitioner in the clip you posted was maintaining a much larger circle with his body while rolling. Rolls in Ninjutsu tend to be much more compact.

Yes, I just don't know how to specify the details because my english vocabulary is just poor in these areas.

Thank you for the other info, it's helpful.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Ando,

I'm going to deal with what I feel is your biggest issue in your other thread, but I want to spend a bit of time covering what you're asking here first.

I used to practice bujinkan (ninjutsu) years ago, and we did a lot of rolling exercises. I'm now trying to get back into cardio and possibly some kind of martial art but not as dogmatically disciplined as ninjutsu or kendo and similar ones (sorry if I offended someone there).

Something "less dogmatically disciplined as… the Bujinkan"?? Er… not sure that really exists in the martial arts world… but as mentioned, this is something I'm going to cover more in your thread asking for "a new type of training"...

I find rolling excercises very useful so I tried to get back to them, but the problem is that we had this kind of padded floor in the dojo that lowered the impacts a lot and made everything easier. Now that I try to to these on the floor it is really painful every time I do it, specially in the shoulders.

Then, honestly, you're probably doing it incorrectly.

I know this can be mastered to the point to do this perfectly fluent in solid floors too, but nobody in the dojo mastered it to that point because they only practiced in the padded floor, which I think it's just an incomplete training (I even remember black belts doing basic obvious mistakes there), but the real problem is that I don't have a padded floor and I don't even plan on having one, so I must (and want to) just learn how to do it the proper way.

You've got a bigger problem than simply not having a padded floor, though. And who says that, just because the padded floor was used in class, no-one had "mastered" it to the point where they could safely roll on hard floors?

So the question is... does anyone here know how to master this enough to the point it won't hurt anymore on solid floor? I'm asking here because although I remember the tips and logic I was taught in Ninjutsu, it still feels like it lacks the logic to make this actually fluent.

Yes, we do. And here's your issue… if you want to learn how to do that, get yourself back to a dojo, get an instructor to watch, and give you feedback. Frankly, you say you trained in the Bujinkan "years ago"… and you're only 23… so you trained, what, pre-teen? Most likely you never had the skill you think you did, but your body was a bit more resilient… and frankly, anonymous people on a website who have never even seen how you perform a roll in the first place can't give you anything other than vague generalisations about basic ideas that most likely, without the guidance of an actual instructor, is largely pointless, as it can't really help you in the slightest.

Short version: you want to get good at the skills of a martial art? Get to a school. It doesn't matter if you think the school attitude is too harsh, frankly, deal with it. But doing things by yourself with no guidance is pointless.

This guy seems to be doing it right (go to 0:22)

From an Aikido perspective, yeah. Ninjutsu, not so much… Judo is different again…

But I'm not sure if the key is having more strenght in the arm or what.

No. Not at all. This is why videos don't help you, as there is no strength, pressure, or anything else in the arm… it's a guide, not a support.

I'm starting from below though because that exactly kind of rolling would be worse at the moment.

I don't know what you mean by "starting from below". Or what kind of rolling "would be worse" (than what? How?)…

Yes I know, but shouldn't the training go beyond that? because even the black belts said it hurts on solid floor, maybe the padded floor helps for starters but what then?

Keep training. Get better. Get smoother. Get more relaxed.

But do it safely under the guidance of an instructor.

Yes, that's what I meant by starting from below, i just posted that video because the solid floor is seen and the guy makes a roll that is even harder to make fluent on a solid floor, but yes.

Ah, so you meant starting from the ground… okay.

Yeah. Get to a school. Everything else is of little to no benefit.

To be honest, when I was into Ninjutsu, the rolls didn't hurt as much as now on solid floor, maybe it's becuase I'm not used to it after years of dropping it or something.

It could be any of a number of things…. but only an instructor, watching you perform, will be able to answer. If you're not willing to go to a school, frankly, that's your decision… but won't help you in the slightest.

 

[drop bear]

Try a gymnastics roll. Where you catch with your hands.

I do a half and half. But not sure I could really describe it.

 

[drop bear]

Here we go. Parlour do a progressive instruction on it. And they catch with the hands but go sideways. Which is what I meant buy the half and half.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I used to practice bujinkan (ninjutsu) years ago, and we did a lot of rolling exercises. I'm now trying to get back into cardio and possibly some kind of martial art but not as dogmatically disciplined as ninjutsu or kendo and similar ones (sorry if I offended someone there).

I find rolling excercises very useful so I tried to get back to them, but the problem is that we had this kind of padded floor in the dojo that lowered the impacts a lot and made everything easier. Now that I try to to these on the floor it is really painful every time I do it, specially in the shoulders.

I know this can be mastered to the point to do this perfectly fluent in solid floors too, but nobody in the dojo mastered it to that point because they only practiced in the padded floor, which I think it's just an incomplete training (I even remember black belts doing basic obvious mistakes there), but the real problem is that I don't have a padded floor and I don't even plan on having one, so I must (and want to) just learn how to do it the proper way.

So the question is... does anyone here know how to master this enough to the point it won't hurt anymore on solid floor? I'm asking here because although I remember the tips and logic I was taught in Ninjutsu, it still feels like it lacks the logic to make this actually fluent.


This guy seems to be doing it right (go to 0:22)

But I'm not sure if the key is having more strenght in the arm or what. I'm starting from below though because that exactly kind of rolling would be worse at the moment.

This is very similar to the ones I was taught in Hapkido. We started out on the padded floor and then started doing them on the wooden floor.

 

[lklawson]

So the question is... does anyone here know how to master this enough to the point it won't hurt anymore on solid floor?

This one's easy. Competent instruction and lots of practice. Nothing else than that will do.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

Yes I know, but shouldn't the training go beyond that?

For ROLL-FALLING? No, not necessarily. Roll-falling is a bit of an artifice. It doesn't represent any particularly common fall which you would experience during fighting from accidental slips and falls. Side Falls, Front Falls, and Back Falls, are all fairly common in both fighting and in everyday life. Roll Falls represent a very small minority of potential falls and simply don't happen in real life particularly often at all. Occasionally if you get a get-off over the handlebars of a bike or in the circumstance of certain kinds of hip throws. That's about it. Don't worry if the role Falls you feel never were particularly advanced in your opinion. Back Falls, in my experience, are far more important. That is closely followed by front falls and side Falls. These are common everyday, real life falls.

Peac favor your sword (mobile)

 

[drop bear]

For ROLL-FALLING? No, not necessarily. Roll-falling is a bit of an artifice. It doesn't represent any particularly common fall which you would experience during fighting from accidental slips and falls. Side Falls, Front Falls, and Back Falls, are all fairly common in both fighting and in everyday life. Roll Falls represent a very small minority of potential falls and simply don't happen in real life particularly often at all. Occasionally if you get a get-off over the handlebars of a bike or in the circumstance of certain kinds of hip throws. That's about it. Don't worry if the role Falls you feel never were particularly advanced in your opinion. Back Falls, in my experience, are far more important. That is closely followed by front falls and side Falls. These are common everyday, real life falls.

Peac favor your sword (mobile)

Rolls falls tend to be common if you know how to fall. Being a gymnastics kid at one time I roll pretty well and so is my go to fall if I can get away with it.

Comparing roll falls to back falls in worth is a misconception. If you are flicked forwards for any reason. Rolling is pretty important. If your legs are swept. Backfalls is important

Both are part of a system of not face planting.

You can't really substitute one for the other and so it is better to learn both.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Comparing roll falls to back falls in worth is a misconception. If you are flicked forwards for any reason. Rolling is pretty important. If your legs are swept. Backfalls is important

Once I was rollerskating backwards and still fell on my face

 

[drop bear]

Once I was rollerskating backwards and still fell on my face

Let me guess. The 80,s

 

[RTKDCMB]

Let me guess. The 80,s

Good , wrong but good guess. It was the 90's.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Let me guess. The 80,s

Crap... I thought that video was deleted!