I love the goofy stuff dogs do.
Self-defense From Animals?
- Thread starter Urban Trekker
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
168. The dog was weighed at autopsy. May not have been full bred pit but that was the weight. I remember every pound of him.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
They autopsied a dog that was shot four times? What was the cause of death?
dvcochran
Grandmaster
The owner was known for juicing his fighters so they autopsied the dog. Guy is a real POS.
COD was a lead treats.
Nice! Man taker downers.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Oh just thought on it, a knife works well for this, and they arent the same object as firearms so can fall under diffrent laws. Probbly best to shoot them, or use projectiles or projectile throwers, but you work with what you have. Its not always practicle to shoot an animal as well, it could have latched onto somone and 4 people trying to unlatch it might create difficulty in shooting it.
I can think of two things that can remove animal spray from the equation, alergies (either yourself or somone you know/family) and laws. It could just be unlawful to own/possess the spray yet a firearm/knife/stick could be lawful to own/possess.
Just something else i have mused on. (you can actually carry a knife where i live, where as you cant a firearm)
I can think of two things that can remove animal spray from the equation, alergies (either yourself or somone you know/family) and laws. It could just be unlawful to own/possess the spray yet a firearm/knife/stick could be lawful to own/possess.
Just something else i have mused on. (you can actually carry a knife where i live, where as you cant a firearm)
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
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I worked with a dog handler and we set dogs on guys a fair bit to be honest.
His advice was to get hold of the collar. Otherwise dogs are a bit quicker and more flexible than we give them credit for so a lot of things like choking them out and stuff you can get caught pretty easily.
He was mad keen on malinois for a working dog by the way.
His advice was to get hold of the collar. Otherwise dogs are a bit quicker and more flexible than we give them credit for so a lot of things like choking them out and stuff you can get caught pretty easily.
He was mad keen on malinois for a working dog by the way.
After reviewing the studies that everyone cites for the effectiveness of bear spray versus handguns, I came to the following conclusions:
These studies are not really straight forward, and the narratives around them tend to be biased against firearms, for whatever reason. If you compare apples to apples, I think you'll agree that it's far less clear cut than many would have you believe.
A few differences I noticed are:
The most common studie(s) everyone cites are comparing apples and oranges, in which the bear spray group is measures only those people who successfully deployed (I mean, accessed, and used) their bear spray. The firearms group counts everyone carrying a gun, and includes those who were attacked but were unable to draw and aim under pressure. This is not a fair comparison, because neither is really "easier to do under pressure", and both can be overcome with training. Bear spray does of course have more of an area of affect, but it seems that a very large percentage of the failure of the firearms group was due to simply not being able to access their weapon under pressure, likely as a result of lack of training. There are similar cases among people who carry bear spray, of course, which, unless you've practiced accessing it and carry it somewhere accessible, will not be available under pressure. The lesson? No matter which you carry, make sure it's accessible, and that you have practiced accessing it under pressure, and whilst moving out offline and focusing on a threat. I've practiced this, and I can tell you: you learn a lot, very quickly. What you can do on the range while standing still and focusing on a non threatening target is totally different from something moving at you, and you yourself moving. Forget any kind of front pocket carry, as pockets will seal up the moment you sink your stance and move your feet, not to mention them being extremely hard to find by touch in the first place.
Two other impressions I was left with: It seems that bear spray is the better deterrent, but may not be as effective when the bear seriously intends / is committed to doing you harm. There are an alarming number of cases in which determined bears completely ignored the bear spray and killed their victims. Firearms, on the other hand, seem to be better in this situation, and, contrary to some opinion, have better stopping power. Even rather small handgun rounds have, in a very large number of cases, stopped Grizzly bears, provided the shots were well placed. The downside is mainly that handguns require more training and finesse, and if used incorrectly (where deterrents would be appropriate instead), may encourage a bear that could be deterred to kill you, and you really don't want that if it can be avoided.
So, which is better really isn't so clear cut to me. I'll try to find the studies that I'm mentioning later if I have time so people can compare the details and come to their own conclusions.
I do a lot of bushcrafting and hiking though, and carry neither. A hardwood walking stick and a hatchet are handy, serve other purposes, and in an absolute worse case scenario, give you a fighting chance. Avoidance and learning about bears, bear encounters, and how to avoid them, is probably much more important.
I'm not personally concerned so much with bears as I am wild boar, though -- especially here in Japan, where they are numerous. They're far more aggressive and unpredictable compared to bears, and are extremely dangerous.
These studies are not really straight forward, and the narratives around them tend to be biased against firearms, for whatever reason. If you compare apples to apples, I think you'll agree that it's far less clear cut than many would have you believe.
A few differences I noticed are:
The most common studie(s) everyone cites are comparing apples and oranges, in which the bear spray group is measures only those people who successfully deployed (I mean, accessed, and used) their bear spray. The firearms group counts everyone carrying a gun, and includes those who were attacked but were unable to draw and aim under pressure. This is not a fair comparison, because neither is really "easier to do under pressure", and both can be overcome with training. Bear spray does of course have more of an area of affect, but it seems that a very large percentage of the failure of the firearms group was due to simply not being able to access their weapon under pressure, likely as a result of lack of training. There are similar cases among people who carry bear spray, of course, which, unless you've practiced accessing it and carry it somewhere accessible, will not be available under pressure. The lesson? No matter which you carry, make sure it's accessible, and that you have practiced accessing it under pressure, and whilst moving out offline and focusing on a threat. I've practiced this, and I can tell you: you learn a lot, very quickly. What you can do on the range while standing still and focusing on a non threatening target is totally different from something moving at you, and you yourself moving. Forget any kind of front pocket carry, as pockets will seal up the moment you sink your stance and move your feet, not to mention them being extremely hard to find by touch in the first place.
Two other impressions I was left with: It seems that bear spray is the better deterrent, but may not be as effective when the bear seriously intends / is committed to doing you harm. There are an alarming number of cases in which determined bears completely ignored the bear spray and killed their victims. Firearms, on the other hand, seem to be better in this situation, and, contrary to some opinion, have better stopping power. Even rather small handgun rounds have, in a very large number of cases, stopped Grizzly bears, provided the shots were well placed. The downside is mainly that handguns require more training and finesse, and if used incorrectly (where deterrents would be appropriate instead), may encourage a bear that could be deterred to kill you, and you really don't want that if it can be avoided.
So, which is better really isn't so clear cut to me. I'll try to find the studies that I'm mentioning later if I have time so people can compare the details and come to their own conclusions.
I do a lot of bushcrafting and hiking though, and carry neither. A hardwood walking stick and a hatchet are handy, serve other purposes, and in an absolute worse case scenario, give you a fighting chance. Avoidance and learning about bears, bear encounters, and how to avoid them, is probably much more important.
I'm not personally concerned so much with bears as I am wild boar, though -- especially here in Japan, where they are numerous. They're far more aggressive and unpredictable compared to bears, and are extremely dangerous.
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Man, I love that solution.
I'm not really concerned about dogs enough to carry around treats (I usually am really good at dealing with them, even aggressive ones), but I love that sort of solution. It's always best to work with an animal's intent / motives when the opportunity is present.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Can you even carry a firearm for said purpose, or even get bear spray? (in japan)
Some form of firearm is your best bet and should be packed if you are wanting anything to do with animal defence and can only carry one thing. And then that includes people as well. (because you can use a warning shot, or a blank as a means to try and scare a animal off as well, and if it doesnt you can still reap the benfits of soemthing that can propel lead pretty fast +if you ever get lost you can hunt animals with it for survival)
Plus if your hunting making noise to scare off bear and other things can also scare off the thing you are hunting. (or you could be hunting a bear)
this is excluding the items you shoudl probbly keep on you by default or carry into the woods, so a knife or two, cord, fire lighting etc.
Oh yes, i am also fully aware bear isnt the only thing that can kill you, but it is one of the biggest that can be a threat to you and is pretty common. And then a lot of things can be pretty dangerous when infected by rabies, and thats also a concern so limiting contact with said animals is probbly for the best.
You cannot carry a firearm unless you are licensed and are hunting (so, not for self defense, and not handguns), but you can get bear spray.
Well, you can actually own certain types of guns for hunting, and go hunting with them -- the licensing process and legal compliance is extremely strict though. I hear gunshots from hunters occasionally, near one of my favorite camping places. My firearms experience is from when I was living in the USA (I'm American). I don't own a gun here, (and may never, unless I feel like dealing with the headache of compliance and really really want to hunt) so it's largely irrelevant.
Knowledge, experience, a walking stick, and tools that serve other purposes will have to do. Or maybe bear-spray...
Actually, you make me a bit curious now if bear spray might be effective against wild boar -- in the sense that, I do not know of anything else one can do to stop a wild boar from continuing to charge you, provided you successfully moved off line and dodged the first pass. Don't really want to try to hit it on the head with a stick or some such as it passes. But maybe spraying bear spray in its path as you move off line could discourage follow up attacks?
Really not a situation I'd ever want to find myself in though.
The autopsy. I heard the dog was faking.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
From wiki, japanese firearm laws dont seem to be worth it. (and thats just owning them, it doesnt cover possession and what you can and cant do with them, which i have yet to try to look up)
As for getting rid of boar, youd probbly be best joining population culls and just shooting them. (it may just reduce the risk of attacks and local population, but its still solving it for your area)
As for bear spray, depends if you mean specfically spray for bears or general spray, because bear spray is just made up of things in qunatities to annoy and deter a bear, i dont know if you can, or if something exsits for boar or other animals. But now i think back "bear spray" may just be a marketing term for general animal reppelent spray, as i swear i have seen some sold for dogs and other animals (or on things marked as "bear spray" it has a "can be used against" indicator on it)
Id honestly not want to trust in just spray, especially if somethings charging at you though, or if its rabid. A gunshot tends to work to scare things off, as well as giving you the ability to actually kill it the easiest. Deterance only goes so far with people, as well as animals in general, plus its kind of hard to stop moving at what ever weight some of these things are once they start.
OP
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #55
I've never heard of bear spray not working, though I can imagine this being the case in a situation where you have a female bear protecting her cubs.
In truth, wild animals - apex predators in particular - have a very high pain threshold, and are built to withstand even the most brutal melee and cutting attacks. Which means that you'll pay for anything less than a kill shot with your life.
Chemicals in the eyes, however, are different. Mother nature didn't exactly prepare animals for this.
I'm also not sure that I could trust my ability to stay calm enough to place a kill shot if a bear was charging at me. Especially when we're talking about high enough calibers that would be necessary to get the job done.
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D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
They arent as hard to shoot as you think, granted you cant just pull out a .44 magnum revolver with literally no other handgun shooting experience, but with sufficent practise you could put all 6 shots into a bear sized target at reasonable range quite fast. and long guns are generally easier to use, and .44 magnum in a rifle isnt powerful enough to be in the "can hurt yourself" catergory. As long as you hold and shoulder it correctly your good, may bruise your shoulder though.
Actually now i think about it, unless they pull out a .22lr for specfically training, you tend to get given a full powered or intermediate cartridge rifle if you want to learn rifle. Less risk involved than in handgun as far as i can tell.
I wouldnt really call it a killshot either, if it knocked you down and started mauling you, if you shot it it would have blood loss so something that limits the amount of time it can maul you as opposed to unmolested, or may make it run off after knocking you down or something. (now dont egt me wrong you can still be hurt and gravely)
The effectiveness of firearms really is all about shot placement. Let's not forget that many *humans* routinely survive multiple gunshot wounds and go on fighting/running/etc. for a surprisingly long time.
I doubt that a gunshot wound or two delivered to a non-vital target is going to cause enough blood loss in a bear to drop it in time to prevent it from doing whatever it wants to you. I kind of agree with Urban Trekker that, if you're going to shoot one that is charging at you, you had better place those shots well.
A rifle is, indeed, far easier to use than a handgun, as you point out -- and packs far more stopping power to boot.
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OP
Urban Trekker
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #58
The thing we have to consider is the weight and speed of the bear.
It's easier to remain calm when a human being is charging at you. Think about it: the average running speed of a young man of average health is about 8 mph. And that's on hard flat pavement with proper running shoes and active wear that's optimized for physical activity. Change the clothing and the environment, and put a weapon in his hands, and that's going to slow him down significantly
Contrast that with a 400 lb wild animal charging at you at 35 mph. Emptying a six shooter into that thing before it can get to you, even purely on a "point-and-shoot" basis, is far easier said than done. I couldn't even imagine trying to carefully place each shot.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
For the sake of agrument, it was a .44Magnum rifle and revolver. The barrel length to an extent increases the velocity of the round. (as well as not all loads being built equal) Just for ease of argument and example, as there are thousands, if not a straight million cartridges, and the list keeps growing. Given .44 Magnum is pretty common, and due to being put in both revolvers and rifle builds, has a pretty large barrel length range.
although now i think back to it, i swear people have hunted bear with AR-15's, unsure of the chamabering. (more self defence hunted, a bear appears near a village in alaska, so they go out and kill it sort of deal)
Calmness is subjective, and im not really calling it easy, just doable with suffcient practise. Plus there are also pros to a bear charging you, its bigger, will come right at you, isnt really concious of mind enough to know what gunfire is/is tuned to run from it and you should be armed with something bigger than you would use to shoot a human.
although parellels can be drawn, the bear and human would be on adreniline (or equal) in the same situation. Im obviously making the presumption you have shot at a antomically realstic target at least once, or at least understand the bears anatomy to some extent, same with i would presume you would do that if you were planning on shooting people.
You would also need to follow a similar if not same drill of moving off the centre line while firing, before or after firing to avoid the thing charging at you/momentum carrying its body into you. (probbly more important given the size of the bear) I dont recall how good a bear is at swerving, i know you are meant to serpentine to avoid some animals as they are made for striaght line sprints as opposed to endurance, and others would just catch you irregardless.
Irregardless to all that, id probbly feel better shooting it while ducking and weaving from a bear as opposed to OC spraying it. (and thats shorter ranged and subject to wind, so more unrelaible) Granted, if we pick me up and drop me where there are bears, id probbly be armed with a long gun. (as handguns are banned where i live, but there also arent bear, and so are sprays for that matter)
Whatever your method of defense, be it bear spray, a fire-arm, or some melee implement, you should consider the following:
1. How are you going to get out of the way. You do *not* want to just stand your ground with a 400lbs charging you at 30mph. Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do.
2. What are you actually going to carry, and can you access it while moving out of the way of said creature, under immense stress. Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do.
3. In what capacity is that implement effective, and in what capacity isn't it effective: what can go wrong, and how do you deal with that.
4. Really, really, try not to be surprised by a bear, or surprise one. In this instance, you will have no time to react and your options are extremely limited. Not even the best self defense implement will help you if you're on the ground before you can react or deploy implement to your advantage.
One tactic which I came across from an encounter, is when someone in Canada used a hatchet to defend himself. He was able to put a tree between him and the bear in order to slow it down, and access his hatchet and kill it (cutting into its head) after failing to deploy his bear spray under stress. He came away mostly unscathed in the end, quite luckily.
So, in short: Chose something you'll actually be able to carry comfortably and in an accessible way. Position yourself off line and preferably get something between you and the animal, if possible. And, if you carry anything to defend yourself, whatever that be, make sure you can get to it and deploy it, and do so under stress. Can't stress that last one enough. Most people who fail to resist effectively fail as a result of not being able to deploy whatever it is they carry, be it a gun, spray, or what have you.
And, as with any self defense situation, awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, etc. are all the most important places to start.
1. How are you going to get out of the way. You do *not* want to just stand your ground with a 400lbs charging you at 30mph. Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do.
2. What are you actually going to carry, and can you access it while moving out of the way of said creature, under immense stress. Keep in mind that you have far less time than you think you do.
3. In what capacity is that implement effective, and in what capacity isn't it effective: what can go wrong, and how do you deal with that.
4. Really, really, try not to be surprised by a bear, or surprise one. In this instance, you will have no time to react and your options are extremely limited. Not even the best self defense implement will help you if you're on the ground before you can react or deploy implement to your advantage.
One tactic which I came across from an encounter, is when someone in Canada used a hatchet to defend himself. He was able to put a tree between him and the bear in order to slow it down, and access his hatchet and kill it (cutting into its head) after failing to deploy his bear spray under stress. He came away mostly unscathed in the end, quite luckily.
So, in short: Chose something you'll actually be able to carry comfortably and in an accessible way. Position yourself off line and preferably get something between you and the animal, if possible. And, if you carry anything to defend yourself, whatever that be, make sure you can get to it and deploy it, and do so under stress. Can't stress that last one enough. Most people who fail to resist effectively fail as a result of not being able to deploy whatever it is they carry, be it a gun, spray, or what have you.
And, as with any self defense situation, awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, etc. are all the most important places to start.
