self defense crosstarining

[Manny]

Good day all, I am a BB in TKD with some training in Kenpo Karate, I want to upgrade my self defense skills or perhaps must say enhanced or improve them . Some guys here have wrote me to crosstrain in a grapling martial art, I have in my city a couple of aikido dojos, a couple of judo dojos one of these claims it teaches japanese jujitsu (jujutsu).

What do you think it's my best bet in these martial arts? and why?

Manny

 

[Noah_Legel]

Check them all out, but I would say the Japanese Jujutsu and Judo dojos would be your best bets. The Japanese Jujutsu probably doesn't teach a koryu style, but it should include throws, joint locks, chokes, and groundwork. Some Judo dojos will also teach all of these, so if you find that one of the Judo dojos in your area covers all of these areas it would be as good of an option.

 

[MJS]

Good day all, I am a BB in TKD with some training in Kenpo Karate, I want to upgrade my self defense skills or perhaps must say enhanced or improve them . Some guys here have wrote me to crosstrain in a grapling martial art, I have in my city a couple of aikido dojos, a couple of judo dojos one of these claims it teaches japanese jujitsu (jujutsu).

What do you think it's my best bet in these martial arts? and why?

Manny

IMO, I'd go and check them all out, to see which one is going to meet the needs that you have. Personally, I'd go with the Judo or Jujitsu dojo. You're already training in 2 solid standup arts, so I'd round out the training with some grappling.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Nothing like a good boxing class to get you in shape and get your striking in order.

 

[Chris Parker]

Nothing like a good boxing class to get you in shape and get your striking in order.

Er, yes... but Manny has already stated he is experienced in striking systems, so that's not what he's after here. I might suggest reading the posts, rather than blindly pursuing an agenda.

Manny, I'm going to be less enthusiastic than others here. Personally, I'm not a real fan of cross-training the way you're describing it, or for the reasons you seem to be using. Really, it comes down to what a martial art is, and how it achieves it's aims. A martial art is a congruent body of knowledge, a set of beliefs, values, and philosophies, giving it it's guiding principles and concepts, and expressed through it's techniques. Now, one thing that that means is that any martial art is considered, or designed to be at least, a complete set of answers to the question of violence (within the parameters of the principles of the art). And those parameters help define it's use, including whether it is a specialist or generalist system.

There has been a tendancy for people training in specialist systems to feel that their system lacksa certain element, say, grappling, or ground fighting, or weapon defence. And that may be very true, however the idea of learning another specialist system to cover that "gap" is not really the right idea. The problem is that each of these systems is a complete method of moving in and of itself, and to simply "tack" another complete system of movement onto it, which is often contradictory to the initial one, results in internal confusion, as your unconscious mind (under stress) can't pick which one to go with (and it always picks what it considers, or believes, to be the best of any two options... so at best, the learning of one of the methods proves to be rather wasted effort from that viewpoint).

For an example, let's use TKD and BJJ. While there are certainly some similarities, there are also some rather big differences, which can lead to far less success than just focusing on one specialist system, and ensuring that your ability to "lead" any situation into the place that system wants to be is kept up to scratch (which is the way specialist systems are designed to work, by the way, not by taking a bit of this, and a bit of that to fill in percieved gaps). The similarities include a focus on the hips, a highly emphasised competitive element, and the two being recent martial creations. However, the way the hips are used is very different, the sense of distancing is very different, the preference for techniques is very different, the sense of angling and timing is very different, the concepts of position/posture is very different, and so on.

Now, that isn't to say that cross-training is not a good idea, or beneficial. But it needs to be approached properly. The best way, I feel, is to train in another art that deals with an area you feel less-confident in, and use it to understand the other environment, then apply the principles, ideas, and concepts of your primary art to that environment. Especially if the reason you are cross-training is for self defence, as there's really little point in training for self defence in a way that actually takes longer to get what you're after out of it, and contradicts the training you've already gone through. So look to what the secondary art is designed to cover, typically for a striking, stand up system, it's best to look to a ground-based grappling system, such as BJJ, or wrestling. Something that focuses on stand-up grappling, such as a number of traditional Japanese systems, or Aikido, tends to be even more counter-productive.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I agree with you somewhat here Chris, but I do feel that you can take two arts' philosophical approach to fighting that may seem contradictory at first but prove to be complimentary later. For example people have questioned me how aiki ninjutsu can exist as they seem to view them as conflicting with one another in their ideas, but in our organization we view that they fill each others' gaps and work together to create something quite useful.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

As a TKDBB, your standup and striking game is going to be great, so I agree with you that if you cross train, grappling will probably be your best bet for eliminating weaknesses in your existing game.

Of the options you mention, jujutsu will probably be your best bet from a pure SD standpoint. If memory serves (and isn't based on some urban legend I half remember) it was developed for military and police application...

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Chris Parker]

I agree with you somewhat here Chris, but I do feel that you can take two arts' philosophical approach to fighting that may seem contradictory at first but prove to be complimentary later. For example people have questioned me how aiki ninjutsu can exist as they seem to view them as conflicting with one another in their ideas, but in our organization we view that they fill each others' gaps and work together to create something quite useful.

Hi Himura,

The way to achieve it is to create a coherrant philosophy that incorporates each element, in your systems case, creating the system of Aiki Ninjutsu. Another recent way that that has happened is modern MMA. That started out as seperate systems, typically specialist ones, who entered into a competitive arena, the UFC (which was, honestly, specifically geared up to favour grapplers and ground fighters over strikers, for some rather obvious reasons... a clue is that they are the same reason the competitive format was given the name "Ultimate" Fighting Championship....), and the strikers quickly found that they had troubles in the environment that the grapplers were dictating (specialists doing what specialists do best, really), so they added an understanding of the ground and grappling attacks, not to fight on the ground, but to avoid the takedowns, and still apply their striking skills (again, being specialists). As the grapplers were now being hit more, they started working on their striking skills, and that began an arms-race, which culminated in modern MMA being it's own distinct discipline.

And that is the way it can work for Manny, in an ideal situation. However he is not going to have the crucible of competition to work everything into a single unified whole, unless he starts competing in MMA competition. And even then, that style of formation would be geared towards competition rather than self defence. But this congruent whole is the only way it can really work, and the simplest, safest, most successful, and highest return way to do that is to stick with the primary system, and learn the new environment (what dangers exist there, what mechanics do and don't work, and so on), and apply the principles of your primary art in this new environment.

 

[MJS]

Er, yes... but Manny has already stated he is experienced in striking systems, so that's not what he's after here. I might suggest reading the posts, rather than blindly pursuing an agenda.

Manny, I'm going to be less enthusiastic than others here. Personally, I'm not a real fan of cross-training the way you're describing it, or for the reasons you seem to be using. Really, it comes down to what a martial art is, and how it achieves it's aims. A martial art is a congruent body of knowledge, a set of beliefs, values, and philosophies, giving it it's guiding principles and concepts, and expressed through it's techniques. Now, one thing that that means is that any martial art is considered, or designed to be at least, a complete set of answers to the question of violence (within the parameters of the principles of the art). And those parameters help define it's use, including whether it is a specialist or generalist system.

There has been a tendancy for people training in specialist systems to feel that their system lacksa certain element, say, grappling, or ground fighting, or weapon defence. And that may be very true, however the idea of learning another specialist system to cover that "gap" is not really the right idea. The problem is that each of these systems is a complete method of moving in and of itself, and to simply "tack" another complete system of movement onto it, which is often contradictory to the initial one, results in internal confusion, as your unconscious mind (under stress) can't pick which one to go with (and it always picks what it considers, or believes, to be the best of any two options... so at best, the learning of one of the methods proves to be rather wasted effort from that viewpoint).

For an example, let's use TKD and BJJ. While there are certainly some similarities, there are also some rather big differences, which can lead to far less success than just focusing on one specialist system, and ensuring that your ability to "lead" any situation into the place that system wants to be is kept up to scratch (which is the way specialist systems are designed to work, by the way, not by taking a bit of this, and a bit of that to fill in percieved gaps). The similarities include a focus on the hips, a highly emphasised competitive element, and the two being recent martial creations. However, the way the hips are used is very different, the sense of distancing is very different, the preference for techniques is very different, the sense of angling and timing is very different, the concepts of position/posture is very different, and so on.

Now, that isn't to say that cross-training is not a good idea, or beneficial. But it needs to be approached properly. The best way, I feel, is to train in another art that deals with an area you feel less-confident in, and use it to understand the other environment, then apply the principles, ideas, and concepts of your primary art to that environment. Especially if the reason you are cross-training is for self defence, as there's really little point in training for self defence in a way that actually takes longer to get what you're after out of it, and contradicts the training you've already gone through. So look to what the secondary art is designed to cover, typically for a striking, stand up system, it's best to look to a ground-based grappling system, such as BJJ, or wrestling. Something that focuses on stand-up grappling, such as a number of traditional Japanese systems, or Aikido, tends to be even more counter-productive.

Well, I agree. Speaking for myself, I don't cross train to gain a little of this, a little of that. I cross train to learn the entire art. That being said, I've gone full circle in Arnis. I know the entire system, as its taught in our org. Of ocurse, its now up to me, and anyone else, who is serious about the training, to continue to explore and keep digging, which of course I do.

As you and I have had these discussions before, I do see your concern with changing adding in a tech and removing something else. IE: I do Kenpo. I have takedown defenses in Kenpo. Instead of tossing out all the Kenpo takedown defense stuff and replacing it with BJJ stuff, keep it Kenpo and make it work, using the knowldge that was gained from BJJ. (Hopefully I said that right..lol) But, again, for me, at the same time, while I do feel that is an important thing to do, I like to have other things to fall back on. If plan A isn't working (plan A being using the Kenpo) then I want plan B (using the BJJ) As for any confusion...again, speaking for myself, I've yet to have any issues with picking something to go with. For me, I really am not that concerned with using Kenpo or BJJ or Arnis to defend myself. Whichever happens to come out is what comes out.

 

[Chris Parker]

The thing is, though, whatever will come out will not be what you would consciously decide on bringing out, it would be whatever your unconsious mind believes is the most powerful, and the most useful for your survival. That's just the way it works, really. So if you train a second art (say, BJJ) with a mind to understanding the environment, and learning what does and doesn't work in that area and situation, but can take that new knowledge back to your original art, and employ the original arts approach, tactics, strategies, and so on, even though you may use mechanical techniques from the new (secondary) art, you will still be using your first (primary) one, no matter what. And that is the way it works, you don't switch between them, you use one to widen your usage of the first.

 

[K831]

So if you train a second art (say, BJJ) with a mind to understanding the environment, and learning what does and doesn't work in that area and situation, but can take that new knowledge back to your original art, and employ the original arts approach, tactics, strategies, and so on, even though you may use mechanical techniques from the new (secondary) art, you will still be using your first (primary) one.

I think Chris is spot on in the way he describes this. I sometimes take fire around here for my thoughts on BJJ and how to incorporate grappling into ones SD game plan. Same with how to incorporate any competition based art into ones SD game plan.

The philosophy the mindset, psychology etc that drive an art really do matter. Coming from Kenpo and Kali/Escrima and playing with BJJ, this became very, very apparent.

Just as an example, everything we do in my Kali class is predicated on the notion that the combatant I face has a knife either deployed in one hand already (regardless of if I have seen it yet) or has one that he can readily deployed. As such, if a technique or approach wouldn't work in that situation, it simply isn't used at all, as it is considered a failed technique from the get go. Both my Kenpo and Kali teachers take this approach. If the technique doesn't apply to an attacker with a knife, a club, a friend etc, its a non-starter. The idea is to cover those risks from the get-go, and end the confrontation immediately, regardless of the degree of violence that requires. That is an example of a guiding philosophythat I think Chris is talking about.

Applying that philosophy to BJJ dramatically changes the application and structure of the art. Failing to apply that philosophy to BJJ would make it incongruent with my other training, and thus flawed.

To add to the difficulty, you fight like you train, so even if you conciously get this, but train in a typical BJJ (insert secondary art here) gym, you can still run into problems when the juices kick in and you go into auto pilot.

Keep that in mind when you choose a path toward your grappling goals; Some guys can make those adjustments on their own while training multiple arts, some guys need a teacher who has done it already and can incorporate it for them, honestly ask yourself what you need.